# Tommy Franks accused of war crimes by Belgian politician **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299 "2003-05-14T23:30:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/21 "2003-05-16T10:50:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\*Hmmmm did this leftist Yahoo forget to read the memo about the Fedayeen using ambulances, and civilian pickup trucks to set up ambushes for the US troops? > \*\* I hate to break it to you, but that is, in fact, irrelevant under Protocol I. Though, of course, the US didn’t ratify protocol I. But the fact that the other side violated the Convention doesn’t free anyone from their obligations under the convention. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Using the latest in smart bomb technology, I would hardly characterize US bombing as _indescriminate_. When you have Saddam loyalists shooting at US troops out of uniform, I would have to say that US troops was very restrained in their response protocol. \*\* The US did not just use the latest in smart bomb technology, they also used cluster bombs, including in such a fashion that bomblets hit villages. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Failure to stop looting is hardly a war crime. Property, no matter how valuable or irreplaceable, is secondary to the safety and lives of both the citizenry and the troops. \*\* Looting DID threaten the lives of the citizenry, when hospitals were looted. > [@](#): > > \*\* > This is exactly the very assinine and despicable action that prompted the US not to support the World Court. \*\* This is precisely the asinine type of argument that leads to Americans being considered in prejudice as simple-minded and ignorant. There is a difference between someone bringing a complaint to a court and the court accepting it. There is also a difference between a court accepting a complaint and convicting someone on it. But given that you call the ICC the ‘World Court’, I guess it was not to be expected of you to be familiar with such unimportant details. ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/22 "2003-05-16T10:52:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*The real issue is that Belgium has unilaterally arrogated super-national status for its courts. Even the USA has not quite done that. > > This is not some “international” court we’re talking about here. This is a Belgian court. Belgium law claims universal and unlimited jurisdiction. \*\* The USA has very much done that. Foreign companies are routinely sued in US courts when people a)believe they get more money there or b)it is the only court willing to accept the suit. People go to quite some lengths to come up with reasons as to why a US court should hear the case. Not the least, the RIAA is trying to apply US copyright laws internationally, regardless of potentially more liberal fair use legislation in other countries. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/23 "2003-05-16T11:47:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Not the least, the RIAA is trying to apply US copyright laws internationally, regardless of potentially more liberal fair use legislation in other countries. Its is standard for corporate law to take effect on any company doing business on your land. This is just the way it is. You can always stop doing business and not go to court. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/24 "2003-05-16T12:09:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > Failure to stop looting is hardly a war crime. Property, no matter how valuable or irreplaceable, is secondary to the safety and lives of both the citizenry and the troops. [242](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=406657) may find the efforts slightly less that satisfactory. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/25 "2003-05-16T12:30:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*good answer MC. It’s just a pity its going to fall on deaf ears. Expect “Freedom” waffles appearing on your menus soon. \*\* Mmm…Freedom waffles. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/26 "2003-05-16T17:41:33Z")
The thing is the only national law code that I’ve every heard of (in recent times) to claim supernational juristriction for at least one of it’s laws, was the US. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/27 "2003-05-16T18:08:48Z")
> [@](#): > > _yojimboguy:_ > 242 may find the efforts slightly less that satisfactory. Just to make sure I understand you correctly, you’re attributing every death in Baghdad over the past two months to US negligence? And you expect to be taken seriously? And many more might point out that Iraq is a much safer place than it has been. Some people to bear witness to this fact – and to dispute the doctor quoted in your article that said that normally, 1 person is shot per day in Baghdad – are[these 15,000 poor souls](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/05/14/sprj.irq.main/index.html) found in a mass grave 55 miles south of Baghdad, or the individuals in [this story](http://www.cnni.co.uk/2003/WORLD/meast/05/12/sprj.irq.mass.grave.ap/): > [@](#): > > Iraqis pulled bound and blindfolded bodies out of a newly discovered mass grave outside this southern Iraqi city on Monday, excavating a site thought to contain the remains of up to 150 Shiite Muslims killed by Saddam Hussein’s regime. > . . . . > So far, several mass graves have been found elsewhere in Iraq. > > On Friday, Amnesty International reported finding a grave containing 40 bodies at Abul Khasib in southern Iraq, thought to contain bodies from the 1991 uprising. > > Outside the holy Shiite city of Najaf, 72 bodies were removed from a grave earlier this month, also apparently dating to 1991. > > Over the past 20 years, Amnesty International has collected information on around 17,000 disappearances in Iraq but says the actual figure may be much higher. I’m baffled by those who say the US’s efforts at restoring order are less than satisfactory. Since you’ve apparently missed this fact, a war was just fought and a fascist regime was just displaced. It’s ridiculous to expect the US to just come in, sprinkle some fairy pixie dust, and instantaneously restore order to a society that spent the last few decades under the thumb of a tyrant, and which now (by necessity) has no government. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/28 "2003-05-16T18:12:54Z")
> [@](#): > > MC Master of Ceremonies:\* > The thing is the only national law code that I’ve every heard of (in recent times) to claim supernational juristriction for at least one of it’s laws, was the US. I’d be interested to see this law. Cite please? ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/29 "2003-05-16T18:18:27Z")
Well you have probably heard of the Russian programmer who was arrested in whilst in the US attending a conference (I believe he’s still in prison). The crime he was arrested for was cracking a computer programme (I think it was one of Microsofts). This he did while he was in Russia where it is not illegal, but the law he was arrested under claims universal juristriction. I can’t rember his name, but as the case was quite big news I’m sure someone will come along with a cite soon. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/30 "2003-05-16T18:29:37Z")
[http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/08/29/tech/main308679.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/08/29/tech/main308679.shtml) Found a cite, though it doesn’t mention the crime was committed in Russia, not in the US. I believe the legal section of the Manchester Guardian did a little article on it a few months back, in which they pointed out that this law effectively claims universal juristriction. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/31 "2003-05-16T18:40:43Z")
> [@](#): > > the US is under no requirement to care about foreign museums, nor act as law enforcement Erm they actually do have obligations under Geneva conventions to do both of those things. > [@](#): > > The real issue is that Belgium has unilaterally arrogated super-national status for its courts. Even the USA has not quite done that. No, the USA justs arrests people for supposed crimes commited outside of it’s borders and never bothers to put them on trial anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/32 "2003-05-16T18:52:30Z")
> [@](#): > > _MC Master of Ceremonies_ > Found a cite, though it doesn’t mention the crime was committed in Russia, not in the US. Thanks. Interesting stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/33 "2003-05-16T19:01:51Z")
> [@](#): > > _Avenger:_ > No, the USA justs arrests people for supposed crimes commited outside of it’s borders and never bothers to put them on trial anywhere. If you’re talking about the folks currently being held in Guantanamo Bay, those people weren’t “arrested,” and nobody’s accused them of committing “crimes” (except maybe war crimes). They are POWs and unlawful enemy combatants. Under the Geneva Conventions, the US is forbidden from charging them with any crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/34 "2003-05-16T19:13:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Age Quod Agis \* > \*\*If you’re talking about the folks currently being held in Guantanamo Bay, those people weren’t “arrested,” and nobody’s accused them of committing “crimes” (except maybe war crimes). They are POWs and unlawful enemy combatants. Under the Geneva Conventions, the US is forbidden from charging them with any crimes. \*\* I thought that the position of the US was that the Geneva Conventions DID NOT apply to the people detained at Guantanamo. They cannot possibly simaltaneously be “POWs” and “unlawful enemy combatants”. If they are POWs then the Geneva convention would apply. If they are “unlawful combatants” then there must be some law that they have broken (hence “unlawful”) that they should be charged under. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/35 "2003-05-16T20:08:41Z")
> [@](#): > > _Avenger:_ > I thought that the position of the US was that the Geneva Conventions DID NOT apply to the people detained at Guantanamo. > > They cannot possibly simaltaneously be “POWs” and “unlawful enemy combatants”. If they are POWs then the Geneva convention would apply. If they are “unlawful combatants” then there must be some law that they have broken (hence “unlawful”) that they should be charged under. First, the US’s position is that _some_ of the people at Gitmo are unlawful enemy combatants, and _some_ are POWs. I believe it’s true that you can’t be both at once (at least, I’m unaware of how it could be true). However, you seem to misunderstand the nature of “unlawful enemy combatants.” That term refers to people that don’t fall under the Geneva Conventions. Thus, they are “unlawful” both in the sense that they didn’t follow the Geneva Conventions, and that the Geneva Conventions don’t apply to them. The US can’t charge any of the detainees with violating the Geneva Conventions because it doesn’t have the authority to do so. It also can’t charge the POWs with violating American laws, because the Geneva Conventions say you can’t charge POWs with crimes. Nor can the US charge the unlawful enemy combatants with violating US laws because US courts would lack jurisdiction over such crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Scruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Scruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruff)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/36 "2003-05-16T22:32:17Z")
The term “unlawful enemy combatants” seems to have been invented by the US Administration so it could say, “Well shit, the Geneva convention doesn’t apply to these people because we can call them something else.” Sort of the same bullshit in Iraq where, when the US forces were enjoined by Annan to fulfil their role as an occupying power, the response was that “We’re a liberating power, not an occupying power” so we don’t have any obligations. Fortunately some honorable person made Bush’s Republican Guard 'fess up that they were in fact an occupying force and would play by the rules. It’s sad when the Administration of a great country like the US plays stupid word games so as to avoid the responsibilities that come with power. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/37 "2003-05-17T09:18:04Z")
The US adminstration is defintely acting illegally by refusing the prisoners at GB full POW status, the term “unlawful enemy combatant” is a complete non-sequitor, as they did not break any international laws by fighting for the Taliban ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/38 "2003-05-17T13:24:11Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Age Quod Agis_ > If you’re talking about the folks currently being held in Guantanamo Bay, those people weren’t “arrested,” and nobody’s accused them of committing “crimes” (except maybe war crimes). They are POWs and unlawful enemy combatants. Under the Geneva Conventions, the US is forbidden from charging them with any crimes. If they’re POWs, I’d like a cite saying so, because the US govt doesn’t think so and isn’t treating them as such. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/39 "2003-05-17T14:26:13Z")
If they are not POW’s, and the US are unable to try them under International Law or National law, could they be charged with Kidnapping and unlawful imprisonment? ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/40 "2003-05-17T16:51:27Z")
**Beagle** : [from CNN](http://robots.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/05/16/morocco.blasts/index.html): “Three booby-trapped cars exploded in front of the Belgian consulate, according to MAP, and another bomb exploded near Casa D’Espangne, a Spanish social club and restaurant. Both Belgium and Spain were allies of the United States and Britain in the war against Iraq.” Think they’ll correct that? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299.md?page=3)