# tomndebb, allowing racist hate speech was a bullshit mod call **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 12, 2015, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632 "2015-08-12T06:18:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/141 "2015-08-14T03:57:34Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I love it when a person with a join date less than 2 weeks old and self-declares that they don’t have a good sense of moderation style nevertheless has the ability to claim they see the moderators showing bias to support their own positions. And I love it when people can’t read.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/142 "2015-08-14T04:01:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > He might, depending on who reports the post, IME. Wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/143 "2015-08-14T05:30:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > To be fair… from further up in that post: > > > [@](#): > > > > The problem I’ve seen in other forums is that moderators on these other sites have been a little biased … > > Emphasis added. > [@asahi](#): > > And I love it when people can’t read.:rolleyes: I can read. I just so happens that on this _board_, we have several things we call “forums”. ATMB is one _forum_, GD is one _forum_, the BBQ Pit is a _forum_. So when you said you saw things in other _forums_, it sounds like you mean on this board. If you meant other message boards and blogs and such, then your statement is trivial. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/144 "2015-08-14T08:46:17Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You play Dope your way, I’ll play it mine.It’s mostly where I come to relax. Which is hard to do if my blood keeps boiling. One of the marks of a good message board is that it _should_ make your blood boil once in a while. If there were no opposing viewpoints, even extreme ones, we may as well debate with our reflections in the mirror. I think **tomndebb** does a difficult job well and very rarely makes a wrong call. He got this one right IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/145 "2015-08-14T09:24:55Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > One of the marks of a good message board is that it _should_ make your blood boil once in a while. Once in a while is fine. Lately it just seems like there’s a constant stream of racist, misogynist bile and nothing’s being done about it because at least they’re polite about their hate. And _as has already happened_, they’re attracting their fellow travellers - check out the join dates on some of the pro-misogyny and pro-racism posters in those GD & Pit threads. It’s a trickle now, soon it will be a flood. And when that happens, I’ll never leave CS again. > [@](#): > > If there were no opposing viewpoints, even extreme ones, we may as well debate with our reflections in the mirror. The idea that we owe all viewpoints a hearing is insane. Some shit is just axiomatically wrong, we already did the legwork in Nuremburg, Selma, Rivonia, Cable Street…we don’t need to _debate_ these issues again. We need to just be able to call it what it is and move on. > [@](#): > > I think **tomndebb** does a difficult job well and very rarely makes a wrong call. He got this one right IMHO. I disagree (and **tom** ’s one of my fave mods. Top 5, definitely. Not that I keep a list or anything 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/146 "2015-08-14T10:38:11Z")
I understood the rules a lot better _before_ I read this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/147 "2015-08-14T14:35:58Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I just so happens that on this _board_, . Did you mean “It” instead of “I”? Because if we’re going to quibble over being clear in our communication in our posts then one might ought to be clear in their own communication. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/148 "2015-08-14T14:51:57Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I understood the rules a lot better _before_ I read this thread. This is my real problem. For me, the issue here isn’t **Construct** or his post. It’s that mods are apparently allowed to declare certain portions of the rules unenforceable. Mods are supposed to interpret the rules as objectively as possible, and of course we can all agree that it’s a difficult job. But it’s not an unreasonable stance to expect that a mod will in fact **enforce the rules**. Tom is not only “on record” as saying that he categorically **refuses to** moderate hate speech because he thinks it’s impossible to define, but he’s also intimated that he feels the same way about the “don’t be a jerk” rule. I don’t think this sort of thing is healthy for the boards. Mods should enforce all the rules. Full stop. If there’s any quibbling, it should be in the way a given mod **interprets** those rules: not in the way they dismiss them entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/149 "2015-08-14T15:13:03Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I think **tomndebb** does a difficult job well and very rarely makes a wrong call. He got this one right IMHO. I think the point is that he doesn’t make calls when it comes to hate speech or being a jerk. He doesn’t enforce those rules. The GD sticky ought to be updated to read “These are the rules, but individual mods reserve the right to ignore them.” [QUOTE=Gyrate] I understood the rules a lot better before I read this thread. [/QUOTE] That’s not a bug, it’s a feature. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/150 "2015-08-14T15:27:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You don’t enforce the rule against being a jerk either? Clearly not, or we wouldn’t be having this conversation. …he said, ambiguously. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/151 "2015-08-14T16:10:28Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Clearly not, or we wouldn’t be having this conversation. > …he said, ambiguously. Don’t be so hard on yourself, **VT**. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/152 "2015-08-14T16:14:33Z")
The Very Proper Gander – By James Thurber > [@](#): > > Not so very long ago there was a very fine gander. He was strong and smooth and beautiful and he spent most of his time singing to his wife and children. One day somebody who saw him strutting up and down in his yard and singing remarked, “There is a very proper gander.” > > An old hen overheard this and told her husband about it that night in the roost. “They said something about propaganda,” she said. “I have always suspected that,” said the rooster, and he went around the barnyard next day telling everybody that the very fine gander was a dangerous bird, more than likely a hawk in gander’s clothing. > > A small brown hen remembered a time when at a great distance she had seen the gander talking with some hawks in the forest. “They were up to no good,” she said. > > A duck remembered that the gander had once told him he did not believe in anything. “He said to hell with the flag, too,” said the duck. > > A guinea hen recalled that she had once seen somebody who looked very much like the gander throw something that looked a great deal like a bomb. > > Finally everybody snatched up sticks and stones and descended on the gander’s house. He was strutting in his front yard, singing to his children and his wife. > > “There he is!” everybody cried. “Hawk-lover! Unbeliever! Flag-hater! Bomb-thrower!” So they set upon him and drove him out of the country. > > **Moral: Anybody who you or your wife thinks is going to overthrow the government by violence must be driven out of the country.** > > (Source: Thurber, James. Fables for Our Time. New York, 1940.) Grab your pikes! Rally your neighbors! Let’s get all the haters out! Anyone who thinks sex with 9-year-olds is pedophilia should be CHASED! FROM! DOPERLAND!!! ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/153 "2015-08-14T17:45:07Z")
Not a whole lot of reading comprehension being taught back at ol’ Groton, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/154 "2015-08-14T18:28:06Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Not a whole lot of reading comprehension being taught back at ol’ Groton, eh? I dunno; I think I read good. Maybe you can help me: 1. This thread originated as a complaint about moderating hate speech. 2. Examples of hate speech were cited. 3. Posters chimed in about all the harms from hate speech. 4. Mod said he doesn’t do hate because it’s too subjective. 5. I examined one of the “hate” examples and asked how it was “hate.” No one would bite because their response would have illustrated the subjectivity cited. 6. Arguments then focused on “willingness to enforce rules,” and why mod should quit. 7. Mod has left implicit, I think (maybe you can help me here) that enforcing “hate speech” rules is redundant as anything that slips past the other rules and can only be modded on hate speech is probably more debatable than overtly offensive. 8. I then posted an awesome Thurber fable mocking people who scream that others should be ostracized for their speech. Have I about got it, **Vinyl Turnip** , or did I miss something? I understand the distinction between “hate speech” and “moderating hate speech.” I just don’t think it’s an important distinction, when complaining. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/155 "2015-08-14T18:55:48Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > 1. I then posted an awesome Thurber fable mocking people who scream that others should be ostracized for their speech. No you didn’t. That fable is mocking people for raging against garbled gossip. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/156 "2015-08-14T19:37:41Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > 1. I then posted an awesome Thurber fable mocking people who scream that others should be ostracized for their speech. > > Have I about got it, **Vinyl Turnip** , or did I miss something? I understand the distinction between “hate speech” and “moderating hate speech.” I just don’t think it’s an important distinction, when complaining. People shouldn’t be ostracized for their speech? That is crazy. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/157 "2015-08-14T19:42:56Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No you didn’t. That fable is mocking people for raging against garbled gossip. Yep. That was a nice list, though. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/158 "2015-08-14T19:49:07Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Did you mean “It” instead of “I”? Because if we’re going to quibble over being clear in our communication in our posts then one might ought to be clear in their own communication. Stupid Gaudere’s law strikes again. But my sentence is an obvious typo, and easily intelligible, whereas **asahi** ’s statement was a differing use of terminology, and therefore prone to misunderstanding. I made a legitimate misreading of **asahi** ’s comment based on differing use of words. Tell me now you don’t wonder about newbies coming in and making pronouncements about the moderators and other board goings on. It was clarified that I misunderstood, but **asahi** snarked at me, so I clarified the source of the confusion. > [@orcenio](#): > > People shouldn’t be ostracized for their speech? That is crazy. How does one go about ostriching people? I’ve never heard of that. 😉 because apparently there’s confusion this could be a joke. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/159 "2015-08-14T23:48:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Some shit is just axiomatically wrong, we already did the legwork in Nuremburg, Selma, Rivonia, Cable Street…we don’t need to _debate_ these issues again. We need to just be able to call it what it is and move on. By saying that a particular issue is settled, done, over, and that anyone having a different viewpoint is not fit to participate in reasoned debate, then those people go underground, to their own chatrooms with like-minded people. Those ideas grow and come back again. If we have truly settled the ideas promoted in Selma, for example, then we can easily shoot down arguments against civil rights for blacks. And we should keep doing that. We don’t want a new generation of pro-segregationists. Plus, and as a counter-example, take gay rights. Assume the year is 1993 and the internet is active and this board is here. Should we shut down threads about gay marriage because it is an absurd topic as the Supreme Court clearly ruled in Bowers v. Hardwick that states can ban sodomy? And marriage?!? Whew, boy, that’s ridiculous stuff. That is hate speech against traditional marriage which is the bedrock of society. IOW, labels like “hate speech” only serve to stifle the free exchange of ideas. If some idiot wants to propose segregated lunch counters, then go ahead. We can debate the merits of that. Where is the harm in allowing free and open debate on that topic? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632/160 "2015-08-15T01:22:08Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > By saying that a particular issue is settled, done, over, and that anyone having a different viewpoint is not fit to participate in reasoned debate, then those people go underground, to their own chatrooms with like-minded people. Those ideas grow and come back again. > > If we have truly settled the ideas promoted in Selma, for example, then we can easily shoot down arguments against civil rights for blacks. And we should keep doing that. We don’t want a new generation of pro-segregationists. > > Plus, and as a counter-example, take gay rights. Assume the year is 1993 and the internet is active and this board is here. Should we shut down threads about gay marriage because it is an absurd topic as the Supreme Court clearly ruled in Bowers v. Hardwick that states can ban sodomy? And marriage?!? Whew, boy, that’s ridiculous stuff. That is hate speech against traditional marriage which is the bedrock of society. > > IOW, labels like “hate speech” only serve to stifle the free exchange of ideas. If some idiot wants to propose segregated lunch counters, then go ahead. We can debate the merits of that. Where is the harm in allowing free and open debate on that topic? Well put; many people want to shut down free speech as long as it’s their opponents’ free speech. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-allowing-racist-hate-speech-was-a-bullshit-mod-call/727632.md?page=9)