# tomndebb is a genocide denier **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561 "2014-08-26T16:07:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/181 "2014-08-29T04:04:24Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Fuck. I thought I was on his ignore list. So far you have not demonstrated a closed mind on the subject. I’ve listed a number of times the 12 methods of denial, the definition of genocide and the summary of Prof Cohn’s case that the situation in Gaza is genocide. You disagree that the facts and events are enough to amount to genocide, not that the facts exist. To get on the list, you must use one or more of the 12 methods of denying genocide on each fact, definition, witness or piece of evidence offered to utterly dismiss each such item. You may not know that Hitler had a Jewish commander in WWI, whom he liked and respected and ordered be left undisturbed. The fact that he made at least one exception does not diminish what happened to the Jews under the Germans. Himmler would see that a list of Jews provided by his physical therapist for his back got special treatment. That doesn’t lessen their crimes. If you keep going down the path of a somewhat open mind, you may come to a place you don’t want to live in, or a place very near that. In Vietnam the US started out certain it was fighting communism and oppression. By the end a majority of Americans agreed with Walt Kelly that “We have me the enemy and he is us.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/182 "2014-08-29T04:14:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > TSS, if I understand your earlier post, you acknowledge there can be killing as war without it being genocide. But you say that this killing is genocide and not war - on both sides. Can you explain what it is about this conflict that causes you to make this judgement? Good question. War is a belligerency between one state and another state. Israel is a state widely recognized around the world by other recognized states. That is the international law definition of a state. Gaza isn’t recognized generally as a state by other recognized states, certainly not Israel or the United States. Contrast that with Cuba or Iran, countries which are generally recognized around the world, but not by the United States. Cuba and Iran are in fact countries because most countries treat them that way. Gaza isn’t a country. Gaza is a territory, blockaded by Israel, allowed to have a fake government by Israel, but not treated as a real country. The Nazi ghettos for Jews were allowed to have governments of Jews, but were blockaded and not recognized. Apartheid South Africa had a number of fake national homelands for black people that had their own fake governments, but they were blockaded by South Africa and not generally recognized in the world. Eventually De Klerk trusted former advocate of violence Nelson Mandela enough to free him from prison and lead all of them into a new democratic country that is no longer apartheid. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/183 "2014-08-29T04:20:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree that for most of us this appears to be a question of definitions. We’re in general agreement on the amount of people who have been killed or wounded and the amount of property that has been destroyed. Our dispute is whether this amount is within the realm of a normal war or rises to the level of genocide. Most of us feel that it does not rise to the genocide level. We’re not disputing what’s happening; we’re just disputing your term for what’s happening. But we aren’t in agreement about the numbers of people killed, the numbers of homes destroyed, the lands that the Palestinians have been squeezed out of, whether there are willful or reckless killings and maiming of civilians, the destruction of property not called for by military necessity, willfully depriving prisoners trials, or the civilians trials, intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population, civilian objects, or humanitarian vehicles, installations and personnel, Intentionally launching attacks with knowledge they will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or long-term severe damage to the natural environment, if they are clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage, Attacking or bombarding undefended towns, villages, dwellings or buildings, or intentionally attacking religious, educational and medical buildings, which are not military objectives, nor even the time period that would go into being considered. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/184 "2014-08-29T05:02:27Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > . . . I’ve listed a number of times the 12 methods of denial . . . And made use of them, repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/185 "2014-08-29T07:38:40Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Good question. War is a belligerency between one state and another state. Israel is a state widely recognized around the world by other recognized states. That is the international law definition of a state. Gaza isn’t recognized generally as a state by other recognized states, certainly not Israel or the United States. Contrast that with Cuba or Iran, countries which are generally recognized around the world, but not by the United States. Cuba and Iran are in fact countries because most countries treat them that way. Gaza isn’t a country. > > Gaza is a territory, blockaded by Israel, allowed to have a fake government by Israel, but not treated as a real country. The Nazi ghettos for Jews were allowed to have governments of Jews, but were blockaded and not recognized. Apartheid South Africa had a number of fake national homelands for black people that had their own fake governments, but they were blockaded by South Africa and not generally recognized in the world. Eventually De Klerk trusted former advocate of violence Nelson Mandela enough to free him from prison and lead all of them into a new democratic country that is no longer apartheid. I mentioned the American Civil War earlier. It seems to fill many of the criteria you give here. It was not recognized as a legitimate government by the United States or other countries. It was blockaded by the United States to cut off its trade. Like Gaza it made the initial attack but faced a much stronger counter-attack. And obviously people were killed. So would you say that the United States was committing genocide when it fought the Confederacy? On a separate issue, you’ve offered reasons why you think Israel is committing genocide against the Gazans. But you’ve also said that you think the Gazans are committing genocide against the Israelis. The factors you gave aren’t relevant to that claim; Israel is widely recognized as a country and Gaza is not blockading Israel. So why are the Gazan killings of Israelis genocide? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/186 "2014-08-29T07:42:28Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > But we aren’t in agreement about the numbers of people killed, the numbers of homes destroyed, the lands that the Palestinians have been squeezed out of, whether there are willful or reckless killings and maiming of civilians, the destruction of property not called for by military necessity, willfully depriving prisoners trials, or the civilians trials, intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population, civilian objects, or humanitarian vehicles, installations and personnel, Intentionally launching attacks with knowledge they will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or long-term severe damage to the natural environment, if they are clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage, Attacking or bombarding undefended towns, villages, dwellings or buildings, or intentionally attacking religious, educational and medical buildings, which are not military objectives, nor even the time period that would go into being considered. I don’t think numbers are the issue however. Even if we agree on the amount of people killed and the amount of all of the other harm that’s been done, I still feel there would be a disagreement. You would look at that amount and call it genocide. The rest of us would look at the same amount and call it war. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/187 "2014-08-29T12:03:26Z")
Apparently, the UN doesn’t agree with your interpretation of the definition of “genocide”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/188 "2014-08-29T14:26:01Z")
[QUOTE=The Second Stone;17682742.] Gaza is a territory, blockaded by Israel, allowed to have a fake government by Israel, but not treated as a real country. The Nazi ghettos for Jews were allowed to have governments of Jews, but were blockaded and not recognized. Apartheid South Africa had a number of fake national homelands for black people that had their own fake governments, but they were blockaded by South Africa and not generally recognized in the world. [/QUOTE] One of the differences is that the governments of the ghettos and the homelands were just puppets, set up by the Germans and South Africans to carry out their will. Thats not true here. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/189 "2014-08-29T14:39:05Z")
I think criticism of Israel is fine. I think the way you go about it, TSS, is completely unhelpful. You are actually doing a very good demonstrating why many Jews like myself tend to ignore much of it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/190 "2014-08-29T14:45:36Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Why the misspelling of the name? Would you not feel misused if someone misspelled your login name in a similar fashion? That’s tantamount to attempting individual genocide, which I also experienced yesterday when someone cut me off in traffic. I sincerely hope that’s one of the magic 12 Ways to get on "the list’. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/191 "2014-08-29T15:36:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If Israel is a genocider, they have to be the worstest genocider, everrrrrrrrr. What with the Palestinian population growth rates being one of the highest in the world. How do you say “You got some 'splainin” to do" in Hebrew? Not enough Palestinian children being blown to bits for you? I’m sure Israel is working on a solution for that, don’t fret. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/192 "2014-08-29T15:46:11Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Not enough Palestinian children being blown to bits for you? I’m sure Israel is working on a solution for that, don’t fret. Yeah, I guess I’m just one of those crazy “genocide deniers”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/193 "2014-08-29T15:53:29Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Not enough Palestinian children being blown to bits for you? I’m sure Israel is working on a solution for that, don’t fret. Same question Second Stone has been asked: Do you feel every war is genocide? And if not, what is it about this war that makes it genocide? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/194 "2014-08-29T15:56:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, I guess I’m just one of those crazy “genocide deniers”. I don’t know that that is the case. But you certainly appear to be one disgusting piece of shit excuse for a human being in your utter dismissal of the horrors being visited on Palestinians, and especially in your off-hand and I would say borderline mirthful response to the murder of children. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/195 "2014-08-29T16:33:42Z")
Until someone can provide evidence that people are deliberately murdering women named “Jennifer”, I will continue to be a Jennycide denier. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/196 "2014-08-29T16:39:57Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > I don’t know that that is the case. > > But you certainly appear to be one disgusting piece of shit excuse for a human being in your utter dismissal of the horrors being visited on Palestinians, and especially in your off-hand and I would say borderline mirthful response to the murder of children. Or… you don’t know when a poster is mocking another posterr as opposed to dismissing horrors. Keep in ming that this thread is primarily about **The Second Stone** , not about Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/197 "2014-08-29T17:28:44Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > I don’t know that that is the case. > > But you certainly appear to be one disgusting piece of shit excuse for a human being in your utter dismissal of the horrors being visited on Palestinians, and especially in your off-hand and I would say borderline mirthful response to the murder of children. You certainly appear to be someone who doesn’t know what this thread is about. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/198 "2014-08-29T17:56:54Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > I don’t know that that is the case. > > But you certainly appear to be one disgusting piece of shit excuse for a human being in your utter dismissal of the horrors being visited on Palestinians, and especially in your off-hand and I would say borderline mirthful response to the murder of children. Yep. It’s a well-known fact that every time someone mocks another person on a message board, the Israelis kill another Palestinian kid. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/199 "2014-08-29T18:11:15Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I think criticism of Israel is fine. I think the way you go about it, TSS, is completely unhelpful. You are actually doing a very good demonstrating why many Jews like myself tend to ignore much of it. But you aren’t ignoring me. You are engaging me. Far more seriously and with a much more open mind than virtually any other opponent of my opinions in this thread. If you follow the facts, definitions, weigh the evidence neutrally you will wind up, regrettably agreeing with me, or realize that people who put aside their bias have a legitimate disagreement on the nomenclature of the tragedy that has been unfolding. If you keep up with this, you are either going to reach the clear and convincing view of the situation I have reached, or you are going to reach a point where you disagree with me but see why I have reached the view I currently hold and view it a reasonable but disagreeable point of view. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/200 "2014-08-29T18:23:10Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > I don’t know that that is the case. > > But you certainly appear to be one disgusting piece of shit excuse for a human being in your utter dismissal of the horrors being visited on Palestinians, and especially in your off-hand and I would say borderline mirthful response to the murder of children. Thousands of children, not that the killing of even more thousands of adults over the decades is any less of a horror. “Never again.” Does it mean never again will we let this happen to any people? We have failed many times in that goal with many peoples, but that doesn’t change the value of the vow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561.md?page=11)