# tomndebb is a genocide denier **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561 "2014-08-26T16:07:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/61 "2014-08-27T01:47:08Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Bullshit. Israel has not attempted to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. > > By your inane definition, the cop in Missouri who shot a black man committed genocide. > > Grow up. It’s not my definition, it is _the_ definition of genocide accepted by all members of the UN. If a cop in Missouri shoots a man because he is black, that is murder. If cops in the US shoot men because they are black, that is genocide. And I can assure that there are plenty of cops in the US shooting black men. If Israel sterilizes 130,000 Ethiopian Jewish women, while not sterilizing white Jewish women, that is genocide under international law. Read the UN definition carefully. So, bullshit yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/62 "2014-08-27T01:54:51Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Here is the 1948 UN definition of genocide > > Israel has done (a) (b) and (c) in Gaza. And we are still paying for it. The SDMB seems to have a determined contingent that demands only quick wholesale slaughter counts. That contingent can go stuff it. International law is clear. Acting against a group _because of what they do_ and not because of who they consider themselves to be is not necessarily wrong. Destroying the nation of Germany - reducing it to a pair of vassal states - was not genocide, just as criticising Jews for mutilating the genitals of infants is not hate speech. Waging war against the leadership of the Gaza strip on the basis that they are launching artillery attacks against Israel is not genocide. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/63 "2014-08-27T01:56:44Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Thanks for the links. I had forgotten those threads and that poster. Had I recalled his character–smugly self-righteous (though lacking any basis for that high opinion of himself), unable to deal with the factual world, incompetent in logic, convinced of his own correctness even when caught in error, and utterly incapable of perceiving anyone else’s perspective–I would have disengaged from that other thread sooner. This is the right answer. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/64 "2014-08-27T01:59:43Z")
Here is an article by Genocide Watch on 12 methods used to deny genocide: [http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/12waystodenygenocide.html](http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/12waystodenygenocide.html) summary of points, illustrated with a Dafur example. 1. Question and minimize the statistics. 2. Attack the motivations of the truth-tellers. 3. Claim that the deaths were inadvertent, as a result of famine, migration, or disease, not because of willful murder. 4. Emphasize the strangeness of the victims. 5. Rationalize the deaths as the result of tribal conflict, coming to the victims out of the inevitability of their history of relationships. 6. Blame “out of control” forces for committing the killings… 7. Avoid antagonizing the genocidists, who might walk out of “the peace process.” 8. Justify denial in favor of current economic interests. 9. Claim that the victims are receiving good treatment, while baldly denying the charges of genocide outright. 10. Claim that what is going on doesn’t fit the definition of genocide. “Definitionalist” denial is most common among lawyers and policy makers who want to avoid intervention beyond provision of humanitarian aid. It results in “analysis paralysis.” It is what the State Department investigation and report brilliantly overcame. At the time of writing (September 2004), the European Union, the Secretary General of the United Nations and even Amnesty International still avoid calling the crimes in Darfur by their proper name. It is a pity. There are three reasons for such reluctance: 11. Blame the victims. 12. Say that peace and reconciliation are more important than blaming people for genocide, especially if the genocide happened in the past. Sound familiar? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/65 "2014-08-27T02:02:22Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > This is the right answer. Yet two hours after that the genocide denying scum is trying to engage me again back in the Great Debates thread. I will never engage Tomndebb on any subject again ever. Piece of genocide denying scum is on my, not quite human enough to engage list. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/66 "2014-08-27T02:06:00Z")
Here is a list of genocides since 1945. [http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/genocidespoliticides.html](http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/genocidespoliticides.html) It links to an 8 page word document. It lists both Israel and Palestinians as offenders. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/67 "2014-08-27T02:13:42Z")
Raphael Lemkin coined the word genocide. He was intent in framing a concept that would encompass the Holocaust and Armenian death marches, but would also cover certain actions short of it. After all, the idea was to prevent atrocity and not wait until the gas chambers were installed. But Lemkin was also skeptical about the international human rights movement: he thought that international action could only realistically be reserved for huge crimes, not routine ones. Lemkin defined genocide as, “A coordinated plan _of different_ actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves.” Furthermore, [INDENT] "It takes centuries and sometimes thousands of years to create a national culture, but Genocide can destroy a culture instantly, like a fire can destroy a building in an hour " [/INDENT] I think the US actions against Native Americans may very well have been genocidal in part. I’ve seen no evidence presented of Israeli intent to wipe out the Palestinians. Though they certainly have the means to do so and I daresay any other nation on earth would have done that terrible if subjected to decades of military and terrorist attack by a far weaker people across a border. Cite: Samantha Power, _A Problem from Hell_, 2002, p42-43. Furthermore with regards to the language of the 1948 UN Convention, “If the perpetrator did not target a national, ethnic, or religious group _as such_, then killings would constitute mass homicide, not genocide,” as Power characterizes it on page 57. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/68 "2014-08-27T02:21:16Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Here is a list of genocides since 1945. [http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/genocidespoliticides.html](http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/genocidespoliticides.html) > > It links to an 8 page word document. It lists both Israel and Palestinians as offenders. I believe you made an oversight. The document purports to be a list of “Genocides and Politicides Since 1945”, or “Genocides, Politicides, and Other Mass Murder Since 1945”, as referenced on the webpage. That’s a wider criteria, especially since, [Politicide’s definition isn’t as clear cut](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politicide). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/69 "2014-08-27T02:26:30Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I believe you made an oversight. The document purports to be a list of “Genocides and Politicides Since 1945”, or “Genocides, Politicides, and Other Mass Murder Since 1945”, as referenced on the webpage. That’s a wider criteria, especially since, [Politicide’s definition isn’t as clear cut](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politicide). Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/70 "2014-08-27T02:27:34Z")
Second Stone, the problem you’re having is you don’t appear to accept that war and genocide are two different things. Both involve a lot of killing. But war is aimed at some particular political goal. In genocide, the goal is the total elimination of some group (or as complete an elimination as is possible). Nobody is disputing that there is a war going on between Gaza and Israel. Both sides are fighting and both sides have goals they want to achieve. But you haven’t produced evidence that either side is trying to completely eliminate the other one. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/71 "2014-08-27T02:37:55Z")
[QUOTE=andros;17674041My humblest apologies, **tom~** , and even more to **~debb**.[/QUOTE] I’m concerned with how **~n~** feels about being left out of your apologies. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > No, it doesn’t prove the mods or even Tomndebb are Nazis. Assuming it is a correct quote, it is strong evidence that Tomndebb, as a Moderator is not interested in justice. I’d argue that is Tomndebb’s style as a poster too. Justice is a basic concern of people trying to be human. Order without justice is dehumanizing. So by your lights Tomndebb is not human? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/72 "2014-08-27T02:45:03Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > [Genocide, Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of - - Prevent Genocide International](http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/convention/text.htm) > > Here is the 1948 UN definition of genocide > > Israel has done (a) (b) and (c) in Gaza. And we are still paying for it. The SDMB seems to have a determined contingent that demands only quick wholesale slaughter counts. That contingent can go stuff it. International law is clear. > > Looking over this list, I can’t speak to (d) and (e) as to Gaza. But seeing (d) does bring to mind another series of events linked to Israel. [Israel Admits Ethiopian Women Were Given Birth Control Shots - Israel News - Haaretz.com](http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-admits-ethiopian-women-were-given-birth-control-shots.premium-1.496519)[Israel Forcibly Injected African Immigrants with Birth Control, Report Claims](http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/) Under international law, that is a form of genocide. > > Destroying a people, in whole or in part, is genocide. Og help me for even doing this in the BBQ Pit of all places, but no, you have not demonstrated a), b) or c). Even if we accept the definition of “in part” as opposed to “the whole”, what “part” of the Palestinians is Israel trying to destroy? Are we to define “rocket launching Palestinians” as some group that is being “genocided”? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/73 "2014-08-27T02:56:01Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Yet two hours after that the genocide denying scum is trying to engage me again back in the Great Debates thread. Only to point out once more that you, lying as usual, have accused me of being a “genocide denier” when I have not even posted on the topic. While I would ask you to link to the post in which I have “denied” genocide in the Levant, I am sure that we would only see one more smugly self-righteous claim that he alone is fighting for “truth,” and, unable to deal with the factual world, will accuse me of saying things I have not said, then, incompetent in logic, will twist what he has posted to mean things that the actual words do not mean, and convinced of his own correctness even when caught in error, will further demonstrate that he is utterly incapable of perceiving anyone else’s perspective. If that thread is any indication, he will deliberately “paraphrase” things I have posted in ways that are utterly at odds with the words in my posts. He is pretty much incapable of accuracy or honesty, believing that he alone is the arbiter of (his invented version of) truth. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/74 "2014-08-27T03:00:43Z")
Geez, what a bunch of deutschbags. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/75 "2014-08-27T03:09:25Z")
I love the fact that TSS seems to feel that the US in 1944 somehow violated a treaty they signed in 1949. That seems…indicative of how he thinks. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/76 "2014-08-27T03:29:34Z")
50 years … some-a-bitch … genocide isn’t that difficult. Maybe Israel should re-think their plan of killing them all with … you know … walls and stuff. Is that why the US built a wall on her southern border … genocide on Mexico? It’s not working … ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/77 "2014-08-27T03:33:35Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > It’s not my definition, it is _the_ definition of genocide accepted by all members of the UN. You are re-defining it in your own terms. You’re claiming it applies where it clearly does not. Again, Israel has never “destroyed” any ethnic, racial, or religious group. > [@](#): > > . . . If a cop in Missouri shoots a man because he is black, that is murder. If cops in the US shoot men because they are black, that is genocide. . . . Bullshit again. Not in the numbers observed. There is no “destruction” of a class of people. There are still millions of black American citizens. You can’t even hide behind the “in part” qualification: it simply isn’t happening to the degree that would make the term meaningful. If you want to be a chickenshit, then, sure, one man’s death is the destruction “in part” of a class or group. But that makes the definition meaningless: every murder is “genocide” if you push it that far. Let me know when the U.S. kills even one per cent of the American black population, or when the wars in the near east kill even one per cent of the Palestinian population. Less than one per cent? Doesn’t add up to “genocide.” The gen is actually growing in population. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/78 "2014-08-27T03:45:32Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I’m concerned with how **~n~** feels about being left out of your apologies. Fuck that guy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/79 "2014-08-27T05:16:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > … But you haven’t produced evidence that either side is trying to completely eliminate the other one. You need to read the definition again, so here it is: Here is the 1948 UN definition of genocide > [@](#): > > Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole **or in part** , a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: > > (a) Killing members of the group; > (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; > (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; > (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; > (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Emphasis added. With intent to destroy, in whole or in part. There is no need to attempt to eliminate a whole population. Eliminating a part of a people counts. There is an internationally agreed to definition of genocide. You don’t get to have your own private definition of genocide, or any other definition than the UN has agreed to. A number of posters have suggested complete elimination must be a goal or achieved, such is a misreading of international law. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/80 "2014-08-27T05:43:28Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > . . . With intent to destroy, in whole or in part. There is no need to attempt to eliminate a whole population. Eliminating a part of a people counts. . . . How big a part? If something less than one per cent counts in your mind, then WWI was a “genocide” on several European nations. This is still chickenshit. It allows you to point at one single dead guy and say, “See? They destroyed his racial group in part.” Again, the Palestinian population is growing. You’re stretching the definition like a latex fetish suit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561.md?page=5)