# tomndebb is a genocide denier **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561 "2014-08-26T16:07:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/81 "2014-08-27T06:18:54Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > How big a part? If something less than one per cent counts in your mind, then WWI was a “genocide” on several European nations. > > This is still chickenshit. It allows you to point at one single dead guy and say, “See? They destroyed his racial group in part.” > > Again, the Palestinian population is growing. You’re stretching the definition like a latex fetish suit. We aren’t talking about one dead guy. Nor just the behavior of making guys dead. We are talking about a whole range of behaviors. > **[US Leaders Aid and Abet Israeli War Crimes, Genocide & Crimes against...](https://www.jurist.org/commentary/2014/08/marjorie-cohn-israel-crimes/)** > > JURIST Contributing Editor Marjorie Cohn of the Thomas Jefferson School of Law discusses the ongoing conflict in Gaza ... By sending vast amounts of military aid to Israel, members of the US Congress,... > [@](#): > > War crimes > > (1) Willful killing: Israeli forces have killed nearly 2,000 Palestinians (more than 400 children and over 80% civilians). Israel used 155-millimeter artillery, which, according to Human Rights Watch, is “utterly inappropriate in a densely populated area, because this kind of artillery is considered accurate if it lands anyplace within a 50-meter radius.” > > (2) Willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health: Nearly 10,000 people, 2,500 of them children, have been wounded. Naban Abu Shaar told the Daily Beast that the dead bodies from what appeared to be a “mass execution” in Khuza’a looked like they were “melted” and were piled on top of each other; assault rifle bullet casings found in the house were marked “IMI” (Israel Military Industries). UNICEF said the Israeli offensive has had a “catastrophic and tragic impact” on children in Gaza; about 373,000 children have had traumatic experiences and need psychological help. The UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) said: “There’s a public health catastrophe going on. You know, most of the medical facilities in Gaza are non-operational.” > > (3) Unlawful and wanton, extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity: Tens of thousands of Palestinians have lost their homes. More than 1,300 buildings were destroyed and 752 were severely damaged. Damage to sewer and water infrastructure has affected two-thirds of Gazans. On July 20, Israeli forces virtually flattened the small town of Khuza’a; one man counted 360 shell attacks in one hour. Reconstruction of Gaza is estimated to cost $6 billion. Israel shrunk Gaza’s habitable land mass by 44 percent, establishing a 3 km “no-go” zone for Palestinians; 147 square miles of land will be compressed into 82 square miles. Oxfam described the level of destruction as “outrageous … much worse than anything we have seen in previous [Israeli] military operations.” > > (4) Willfully depriving a prisoner of war or a civilian the rights of fair and regular trial: Nearly 2,000 Palestinians were arrested by Israeli forces during July 2014, according to the Palestinian Prisoners Center for Studies. Prisoners include 15 members of the Palestinian Legislative Council, about 240 children, dozens of women, journalists, activists, academics and 62 former prisoners previously released in a prisoner exchange. Israeli forces executed many prisoners after arrest, either by directly firing on them, refusing to allow treatment or allowing them to bleed to death. More than 445 prisoners are being held without charge or trial under administrative detention. > > (5) Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population, civilian objects, or humanitarian vehicles, installations and personnel: “The civilian population in the Gaza Strip is under direct attack,” reads a joint declaration of over 150 international law experts. Israeli forces violated the principle of “distinction,” which forbids deliberate attacks on civilians or civilian objects. Israeli forces bombed 142 schools (89 run by the UN), including six UN schools in which civilians were taking refuge. Israeli forces shot and killed fleeing civilians (warnings, which must effectively give civilians time to flee before bombing, do not relieve Israel from its legal obligations not to target civilians). Israeli forces repeatedly bombed Gaza’s only power plant and other infrastructure, which are “beyond repair.” Israeli forces bombed one-third of Gaza’s hospitals, 14 primary healthcare clinics and 29 ambulances. At least five medical staff were killed and tens of others were injured. > > (6) Intentionally launching attacks with knowledge they will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or long-term severe damage to the natural environment, if they are clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage: The principle of “proportionality” forbids disproportionate and excessive civilian casualties compared to the claimed military advantage gained in the attack. The Dahiye Doctrine directly violates this principle. Responding to Hamas’ rockets with 155-millimeter artillery is disproportionate. Although nearly 2,000 Palestinians (over 80 percent civilians) have been killed, 67 Israelis (all but three of them soldiers) have been killed. The coordinates of all UN facilities were repeatedly communicated to the Israeli forces; they nevertheless bombed them multiple times. Civilians were attacked in Shuja’iyyah market. > > (7) Attacking or bombarding undefended towns, villages, dwellings or buildings, or intentionally attacking religious, educational and medical buildings, which are not military objectives: On July 20, Israeli forces virtually flattened the small town of Khuza’a; one man counted 360 shell attacks in one hour. Israeli forces bombed 142 schools (89 run by the UN), one-third of Gaza’s hospitals, 14 primary healthcare clinics, and 29 ambulances. Israeli shelling completely destroyed 41 mosques and partially destroyed 120 mosques. [http://www.genocidewatch.org/aboutgenocide/12waystodenygenocide.html](http://www.genocidewatch.org/aboutgenocide/12waystodenygenocide.html) > [@](#): > > 1. Claim that what is going on doesn’t fit the definition of genocide. “Definitionalist” denial is most common among lawyers and policy makers who want to avoid intervention beyond provision of humanitarian aid. It results in “analysis paralysis.” It is what the State Department investigation and report brilliantly overcame. At the time of writing (September 2004), the European Union, the Secretary General of the United Nations and even Amnesty International still avoid calling the crimes in Darfur by their proper name. It is a pity. There are three reasons for such reluctance: > > A. Among journalists, the general public, diplomats, and lawyers who haven’t read the Genocide Convention, there is a common misconception that a finding of genocide would legally require action to suppress it. Under this misconception, having been informed that the U.S. would take no action in Rwanda in 1994, State Department lawyers ordered avoidance of the word. They made their legal conclusion fit the Procrustean bed of U.S. policy. They committed legal malpractice. > > Unfortunately, the Genocide Convention carries no such legal compulsion to act. It legally requires only that states-parties pass national laws against genocide and then prosecute or extradite those who commit the crime. Article VIII of the Convention says they also “may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate for the prevention and suppression of acts of genocide.” But they aren’t legally required to do so. Article I of the Genocide Convention creates a moral obligation to prevent genocide, but it does not dictate military intervention or any other particular measures. > > B. Another misconception is the “all or none” concept of genocide. The all-or-none school considers killings to be genocide only if their intent is to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group “in whole.” Their model is the Holocaust. They ignore the “in part” in the definition in the Genocide Convention, which they often haven’t read. > > C. Since the 1990’s, a new obstacle to calling genocide by its proper name has been the distinction between genocide and “ethnic cleansing,” a term originally invented as a euphemism for genocide in the Balkans. Genocide and “ethnic cleansing” are sometimes portrayed as mutually exclusive crimes, but they are not. Prof. Schabas, for example, says that the intent of “ethnic cleansing” is expulsion of a group, whereas the intent of “genocide” is its destruction, in whole or in part. He illustrates with a simplistic distinction: in “ethnic cleansing,” borders are left open and a group is driven out; in “genocide,” borders are closed and a group is killed. The fallacy of the distinction is evident in Darfur, where the intent of the Sudanese government and their Janjaweed militias is to drive Fur, Massaleit, and Zaghawa black African farmers off of their ancestral lands (ethnic cleansing,) using terror caused by systematic acts of genocide, including mass murder, mass rape, mass starvation, and concentration camps run by Janjaweed and Sudanese army guards, where murder and rape are standing orders. Both ethnic cleansing and genocide are underway in Darfur. So, chickenshit and bullshit to you too. You either don’t know what you are talking about, or deliberately using a propaganda method to deny genocide. I’m going for not knowing what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/82 "2014-08-27T06:26:49Z")
Here are the latest bombings of civilian homes: > [@](#): > > Source: AP-Excite > > By IBRAHIM BARZAK > > GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israel bombed two Gaza City high-rises with dozens of homes and shops Tuesday, collapsing one building and severely damaging the other in a further escalation of seven weeks of cross-border fighting with Hamas. > > In the past, the military has hit targets in high-rises in pinpoint strikes, but left the buildings standing. Since Saturday, it has toppled or destroyed five towers and shopping complexes in an apparent new tactic aimed at increasing pressure on Hamas. > > The objects of the latest strikes contain apartments inhabited almost exclusively by middle-class Gazans, who up until now have been largely spared the considerable dislocation that has affected tens of thousands of other Gaza residents in densely populated neighborhoods like Shijaiyah. > > That has raised the possibility that the Israeli military is trying to use better-off Gazans, like professionals and Palestinian authority employees, to put pressure on Hamas to end the fighting on Israel’s terms. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/83 "2014-08-27T07:03:03Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > . . . So, chickenshit and bullshit to you too. You either don’t know what you are talking about, or deliberately using a propaganda method to deny genocide. I’m going for not knowing what you are talking about. I know more than you do, ya bozo. You’re using the word in a Humpty-Dumpty fashion, and no one here is convinced. You’re making up fantasy definitions and applying them without any sense. The worst thing is that your efforts cheapen the world’s real massacres and slaughters. If you call every single little killing a “genocide,” then you don’t have any word left to describe the real thing when it happens. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/84 "2014-08-27T07:14:49Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I know more than you do, ya bozo. You’re using the word in a Humpty-Dumpty fashion, and no one here is convinced. You’re making up fantasy definitions and applying them without any sense. > > The worst thing is that your efforts cheapen the world’s real massacres and slaughters. If you call every single little killing a “genocide,” then you don’t have any word left to describe the real thing when it happens. You are ignore listed for genocide denial. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/85 "2014-08-27T07:47:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If this is attempted genocide, then there have been _dozens, if not hundreds_ of attempted genocides in the last 50 years. Not to deny the hyperbole, but “dozens”, at least, sounds about right. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/86 "2014-08-27T10:48:29Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You are ignore listed for genocide denial. **TSS** , you petulant fucking child. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/87 "2014-08-27T11:04:01Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You are ignore listed for genocide denial. You should issue a list of rules of debate too. Twelve or so, each with explanatory notes. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/88 "2014-08-27T11:29:47Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Yes. The US was at one point in time engaged in genocide of Native Americans. It was a brutal thing. The US is certainly funding the military operations related to Gaza, and thus guilty there. The UK has attempted genocide in many parts of the world. The Germans against the Jews. The US and the UK have also done ‘worse’ things, killing far more people and destroying far more property, just in the last 4 or 5 decades. Further, dozens of other countries have done so as well. Most nations in the world, in fact. So if Israel is guilty of attempted genocide in the last 50 years, then so are _most countries on earth._ And that’s a ridiculously low bar for genocide. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/89 "2014-08-27T11:32:48Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You are ignore listed for genocide denial. So now you’re **brazil84**? Fine company you’re keeping. Have you considered that it’s possible for reasonable, well-meaning people to disagree on this topic? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/90 "2014-08-27T11:40:43Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Here is a list of genocides since 1945. [http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/genocidespoliticides.html](http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/genocidespoliticides.html) > > It links to an 8 page word document. It lists both Israel and Palestinians as offenders. Then why are you singling out Israel for special criticism? According to this list, this mass-killing is one of the smallest in the world. And, according to this list, Israel is as much a victim of genocide/politicide/mass-killings as the Palestinians. Even if we single out the Middle East region, according to this list, Israel is one of the least-guilty countries in terms of murder and damage wrought. Why do you torpedo your own arguments with lists like this? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/91 "2014-08-27T12:02:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why do you torpedo your own arguments with lists like this? Because he’s a moron. Add me to your list too, asswipe. You have no more concept of genocide than my cat does calculus. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/92 "2014-08-27T12:04:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why do you torpedo your own arguments with lists like this? Because he’s a moron. Hey TSS! Yes, you, asswipe. Add me to your ignore list as well. You have no more concept of genocide than my cat has of calculus. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/93 "2014-08-27T12:15:29Z")
[raises hand] Can I be on your ignore list too please: TSS, what kind of jackwipe of an asswagon are you? Hamas kills more Palestinians than IDF does. You’re the reason God want white people dead, help the Old Guy out will ya? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/94 "2014-08-27T12:58:48Z")
Jesus H. Christ, **TSS** is now just an incarnation of **NotFooledbyW** , except with good grammar. What “Part” of the Palestinian population is Israel trying to destroy? If it’s not some defined group of people, then the definition does not apply. Here are some examples that might work: 1. All males over the age of 16. 2. All females of childbearing age. 3. Every child under the age of 2. You can’t just say: Israel killed some Palestinians and so… GENOCIDE! Tell us, what “part” of the Palestinian population is Israel trying to destroy? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/95 "2014-08-27T13:04:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Tell us, what “part” of the Palestinian population is Israel trying to destroy? The Hamas part. You know, the guys launching rockets at Israeli public schools from Gaza public schools. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/96 "2014-08-27T13:10:23Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > The Hamas part. You know, the guys launching rockets at Israeli public schools from Gaza public schools. That’s what [I thought.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17675769&postcount=72) Or, maybe the “part” is “the ones already killed”. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/97 "2014-08-27T13:16:36Z")
**The Second Stone** , please place me on your ignore list for (apparently) having a different definition of genocide than you. Also, so I can talk about you behind your back. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/98 "2014-08-27T13:18:23Z")
We should have the mods issue some Handy-like instructions to one of their own. Tomndebb shouldn’t be allowed to commit genocide on the dope any more. That will fix things. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/99 "2014-08-27T13:37:58Z")
I bet none of you get a Christmas card from\*\* TSS\*\* this year. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/100 "2014-08-27T13:55:06Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I bet none of you get a Christmas card from\*\* TSS\*\* this year. That wouldn’t be very Christian of him now would it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561.md?page=6)