# tomndebb is a genocide denier **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561 "2014-08-26T16:07:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/101 "2014-08-27T14:06:07Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > It’s not my definition, it is _the_ definition of genocide accepted by all members of the UN. > > If a cop in Missouri shoots a man because he is black, that is murder. If cops in the US shoot men because they are black, that is genocide. And I can assure that there are plenty of cops in the US shooting black men. > > If Israel sterilizes 130,000 Ethiopian Jewish women, while not sterilizing white Jewish women, that is genocide under international law. Read the UN definition carefully. > > So, bullshit yourself. Dude. You are so full of shit it is hilarious. To be fair, so is your source, so you can’t really be blamed. The allegation is that these women were given shots of the drug Depo Provera while in transit camps. Not that they were “sterilized”. Now, it is a shame and a scandal if women were given a birth control drug without knowing what it was (which is the allegation), assuming it is true. But it is physically impossible for such an injection to result in lower birth rates for a decade. Depro Provera is “long lasting” in that a shot lasts 12-14 weeks. It does not last for a decade and even if every single woman had been injected, a 13 week period isn’t going to amount to the alleged 20% decrease in births over a decade. That is just physically impossible. And imposing a 13 week period of infertility, whilke a gross violation of rights (if true), hardly amounts to “genocide”. > **[Medroxyprogesterone acetate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depo-Provera)** > > Medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA), also known as depot medroxyprogesterone acetate (DMPA) in injectable form and sold under the brand name Depo-Provera among others, is a hormonal medication of the progestin type. It is used as a method of birth control and as a part of menopausal hormone therapy. It is also used to treat endometriosis, abnormal uterine bleeding, paraphilia, and certain types of cancer. The medication is available both alone and in combination with an estrogen.\[ Common side ef... ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/102 "2014-08-27T14:11:33Z")
So, **The Second Stone** is backwards **FinnAgain**? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/103 "2014-08-27T14:16:05Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I bet none of you get a Christmas card from\*\* TSS\*\* this year. Well, then, he’ll be guilty of genocide! By my personal definition, of course, which is all that matters. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/104 "2014-08-27T14:34:56Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Well, then, he’ll be guilty of genocide! > By my personal definition, of course, which is all that matters. Actually, by TSS’s oft-quoted “UN Convention”! See II.B. I would say not getting a Christmas card amounts to “serious …mental harm to members of the group”. So now he either has to admit his genocidal tendencies or be guilty of genocide denial and put himself on ignore. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/105 "2014-08-27T15:25:11Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > With intent to destroy, in whole or in part. There is no need to attempt to eliminate a whole population. Eliminating a part of a people counts. > > There is an internationally agreed to definition of genocide. You don’t get to have your own private definition of genocide, or any other definition than the UN has agreed to. A number of posters have suggested complete elimination must be a goal or achieved, such is a misreading of international law. So would you consider every war to be an act of genocide? Or is there a standard you recognize that distinguishes between warfare and genocide? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/106 "2014-08-27T15:36:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So, **The Second Stone** is backwards **FinnAgain**? Ooh, let’s lock the two of them in a thread together and see if we can create fusion energy from the resulting moral outrage! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/107 "2014-08-27T16:01:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Jesus H. Christ, **TSS** is now just an incarnation of **NotFooledbyW** , except with good grammar. You can’t say “fuck you”, but a deadly insult like this passes without remark. _:shakes head sadly at what the world has come to:_ Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/108 "2014-08-27T16:20:09Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Ooh, let’s lock the two of them in a thread together and see if we can create fusion energy from the resulting moral outrage! Didn’t ST:TOS do an episode on this? (checks Memory Alpha) Yep. “The Alternative Factor” features a “reality-jumping madman.” Sounds like **The Second Stone** to me. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/109 "2014-08-27T16:51:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Dude. You are so full of shit it is hilarious. To be fair, so is your source, so you can’t really be blamed. > > The allegation is that these women were given shots of the drug Depo Provera while in transit camps. Not that they were “sterilized”. > > Now, it is a shame and a scandal if women were given a birth control drug without knowing what it was (which is the allegation), assuming it is true. > > But it is physically impossible for such an injection to result in lower birth rates for a decade. Depro Provera is “long lasting” in that a shot lasts 12-14 weeks. It does not last for a decade and even if every single woman had been injected, a 13 week period isn’t going to amount to the alleged 20% decrease in births over a decade. That is just physically impossible. And imposing a 13 week period of infertility, whilke a gross violation of rights (if true), hardly amounts to “genocide”. > > [Medroxyprogesterone acetate - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depo-Provera) You haven’t read up on the subject. The women were given injections every 3 months, told they were inoculations and then couldn’t figure out why they couldn’t get pregnant. > **[Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gave-birth-control-to-ethiopian-jews-without-their-consent-8468800.html)** > >   > [@](#): > > Israel has admitted for the first time that it has been giving Ethiopian Jewish immigrants birth-control injections, often without their knowledge or consent. > > The government had previously denied the practice but the Israeli Health Ministry’s director-general has now ordered gynaecologists to stop administering the drugs. According a report in Haaretz, suspicions were first raised by an investigative journalist, Gal Gabbay, who interviewed more than 30 women from Ethiopia in an attempt to discover why birth rates in the community had fallen dramatically. > > One of the Ethiopian women who was interviewed is quoted as saying: “They [medical staff] told us they are inoculations. We took it every three months. We said we didn’t want to.” It is alleged that some of the women were forced or coerced to take the drug while in transit camps in Ethiopia. > > The drug in question is thought to be Depo-Provera, which is injected every three months and is considered to be a highly effective, long-lasting contraceptive. > > Nearly 100,000 Ethiopian Jews have moved to Israel under the Law of Return since the 1980s, but their Jewishness has been questioned by some rabbis. Last year, the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who also holds the health portfolio, warned that illegal immigrants from Africa “threaten our existence as a Jewish and democratic state”. > > Haaretz published an extract from a letter sent by the Ministry of Health to units administering the drug. Doctors were told “not to renew prescriptions for Depo Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment”. I’m getting the impression that people don’t click on and then read the links. This particular practice reducing the birth rates of African women in Israel was stopped once it was discovered. But when it happens to 100,000 women whose birth rates plummet. Yes I’d say this is cause for further investigation and possible charges. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/110 "2014-08-27T16:51:50Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > We should have the mods issue some Handy-like instructions to one of their own. > > Tomndebb shouldn’t be allowed to commit genocide on the dope any more. That will fix things. You’ve got the wrong Mod. Marley is the one who committed genocide, banning the entire board. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/111 "2014-08-27T17:01:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not to deny the hyperbole, but “dozens”, at least, sounds about right. Yes, genocide is common. I’m on about this one because that is the subject of the Great Debates thread with the man handing back his medal, and because the US is funding this genocide, and we have US citizens like Joan Rivers cheering it on. > [@Shodan](#): > > You can’t say “fuck you”, but a deadly insult like this passes without remark. > > _:shakes head sadly at what the world has come to:_ > > Regards, > Shodan Saying I have good grammar is not a deadly insult. And I kinda of disagree with it. My grammar is less than I’d like it to be by a long margin. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So would you consider every war to be an act of genocide? Or is there a standard you recognize that distinguishes between warfare and genocide? Good question. We have a defined standard for genocide. I suppose there is a defined standard under international law for war under Geneva Conventions or UN rules. I would imagine that some sort of Venn diagram would show the areas of overlap and disagreement. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/112 "2014-08-27T17:11:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So now you’re **brazil84**? Fine company you’re keeping. > > Have you considered that it’s possible for reasonable, well-meaning people to disagree on this topic? Well, why aren’t the other people in the thread, and you, etc. on my list? You know, the ones that ask. That would be a good question. You haven’t rejected the UN definition of genocide after being made aware of it. You haven’t rejected the facts that are reported. You haven’t gone out of your way to libel every single reporter of the facts. You are pointing out what you feel are weaknesses in my argument in good faith, in addition to the occasional mild insult. In short, you have an open mind on the subject, in my opinion. Tomndebb was provided all the links, official definition etc. and still trolled for genocide denial claiming he was doing no such thing. Someone else also pointed out that the list of post 1945 genocides includes the Palestinians against Israel and claim that nullifies my point. I agree that Hamas talks genocide openly and kill when they can. That is a genocide crime. I’m against any violence against Israelis. The Hamas attacks this year against Israel are utterly ineffective militarily, killing mostly civilians with their only possible usefulness being to “wag the dog” and get the people of Gaza whipped up against a common enemy to raise their own standing. I condemn it as criminal. One genocide does not justify another. They are both crimes. And I’m paying for one of them. I object. Neither side is achieving military objectives, and I doubt either side has military objectives. What has been going on in the summer of 2014 is the killing of civilians to show it can be done, to demonstrate cruelty to their own people and “the enemy”. How stupid and barbaric. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/113 "2014-08-27T17:15:47Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You haven’t read up on the subject. The women were given injections every 3 months, told they were inoculations and then couldn’t figure out why they couldn’t get pregnant. > [Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent | The Independent | The Independent](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gave-birth-control-to-ethiopian-jews-without-their-consent-8468800.html) > I’m getting the impression that people don’t click on and then read the links. > > This particular practice reducing the birth rates of African women in Israel was stopped once it was discovered. But when it happens to 100,000 women whose birth rates plummet. Yes I’d say this is cause for further investigation and possible charges. And you have to learn to read news articles critically. The actual charge of coercion was based on what happened in transit camps. > [@](#): > > It is alleged that some of the women were forced or coerced to take the drug while in transit camps in Ethiopia. The charge that the authorities were continually giving them birth control withouty knowledge or consent is based, allegedly, on the testimony of a single woman out of a grand total of 30 interviewed: > [@](#): > > One of the Ethiopian women who was interviewed is quoted as saying: “They [medical staff] told us they are inoculations. We took it every three months. We said we didn’t want to.” Far from “admitting the charge”, what actually happened is that the government, on hearing the allegations, re-iterated that no birth control products were to be given to Etheopian women without full knowledge or consent - which is perfectly appropriate: > [@](#): > > Haaretz published an extract from a letter sent by the Ministry of Health to units administering the drug. Doctors were told “not to renew prescriptions for Depo Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment”. Now, which is more likely: (a) a cultural mix-up in which there wasn’t clear communication between immigrants who spoke a totally different language and came from a non-Western background, over their health care and family planning (i.e., a boring non-story); or (b) an invidious conspiracy to “commit genocide” on a hundred thousand Israeli citizens who are Jewish, and whom the government, at its own expense, just moved to Israel (because they faced actual genocide in Etheopia, no less), by a method that would require each and every woman to get birth control every few weeks and never once question what it was? If the Israelis wanted to “commit genocide” on the Beta Israel, all they had to do was … nothing. Just leave them in Etheopia. That’s the problem with conspiracy-mongers: they never bother to wonder if the conspiracy they are allegeng, you know, _makes a lick of sense_. None of which, btw, is to deny that the Beta Israel face real problems with racism in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/114 "2014-08-27T17:21:39Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > None of which, btw, is to deny that the Beta Israel face real problems with racism in Israel. So what is the final and official report, fully released and holding nothing back? We don’t know yet. It is a bit soon to expect that report if a thorough investigation is being made. By the way, what does “Beta Israel” mean? I found this: [Beta Israel - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/115 "2014-08-27T17:24:16Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/116 "2014-08-27T17:30:15Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > So what is the final and official report, fully released and holding nothing back? We don’t know yet. It is a bit soon to expect that report if a thorough investigation is being made. > > By the way, what does “Beta Israel” mean? It’s the polite term for Ethiopian Jews. The commonly known term “Falasha” is actually somewhat of an ethnic slur. > **[Beta Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel#Terminology)** > > The Beta Israel,\[b\] or Ethiopian Jews,\[c\] are a Jewish diaspora group that lived for thousands of years in the territory of the Kingdom of Aksum and its successor the Ethiopian Empire, which is currently divided between the Amhara Region and Tigray Region in modern-day Ethiopia. After the founding of the State of Israel in 1948, most of the Beta Israel immigrated there or were evacuated through several initiatives by the Israeli government. Historically, Beta Israel lived in northern and north Th... The point made by this episode is that, basically, any problem or issue with Israel becomes fodder from anti-Israeli conspiracy theories. Anyone knowing the history of the Beta Israel knows three things: (1) it is an undeniable good thing Israel did, rescuing them; and (2) they still face racism and discrimination in Israel; and (3) the authorities are mostly active to combat this racism when it rears its ugly head. An example is the “school controversy”: > [@](#): > > Racism was also alleged in 2009, in a case where school children of Ethiopian ancestry were denied admission into three semi-private religious schools in the town of Petah Tikva. An Israeli government official criticised the Petah Tikva Municipality and the semi-private Haredi schools, saying “This concerns not only the three schools that have, for a long time, been deceiving the entire educational system. For years, racism has developed here undeterred”. Shas spiritual leader Ovadia Yosef threatened to fire any school principal from Shas’s school system who refused to receive Ethiopian students. The Israeli Education Ministry decided to pull the funding from the Lamerhav, Da’at Mevinim and Darkei Noam schools, the three semi-private institutions that refused to accept the students. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke out against the rejection of Ethiopian children, calling it “a moral terror attack.” > **[Racism in Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel#Beta_Israel)** > > Racism in Israel encompasses all forms and manifestations of racism experienced in Israel, irrespective of the colour or creed of the perpetrator and victim, or their citizenship, residency, or visitor status. More specifically in the Israeli context, racism in Israel refers to racism directed against Israeli Arabs by Israeli Jews, intra-Jewish racism between the various Jewish ethnic divisions (in particular against Ethiopian Jews), historic and current racism towards Mizrahi Jews alth Racis... ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/117 "2014-08-27T19:53:07Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I’m getting the impression that people don’t click on and then read the links. Pure comedy gold! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/118 "2014-08-27T20:00:12Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > In short, you have an open mind on the subject, in my opinion. Tomndebb was provided all the links, official definition etc. and still trolled for genocide denial claiming he was doing no such thing. More lies from the liar. I asked about one specific event without ever denying any others. I have not addressed the issue of genocide in any context, so an accusation of denial is simply your invention. You have still failed to point to a single post from me denying genocide. You simply invent nonsense to support your hatred. Your links never provided a single support claim for the nonsense that Hedges invented, yet you have tried to claim that multiple different events proved his claim even though they specifically differed in serious details. You simply make things up (and lie about other things) in order to pretend your hatred has some basis in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/119 "2014-08-27T20:45:18Z")
[QUOTE=The Second Stone;17675505 Carpet bombing cities was mass murder, a violation of the Geneva Conventions, useless and evil. I notice that you think I have a problem with Jews. Let’s not confuse Israelis with Jews. Some Jews are Israelis, but not most Jews. Most Israelis are Jews, but not all Israelis.[/QUOTE] What a fucking tool you are. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561/120 "2014-08-27T20:55:23Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You are ignore listed for genocide denial. Yay! I made it! I’m one of the “cool crowd” now! I’m on TSS’s ignore list! Don’t you all wish you were on that list? Well, don’t worry: soon, we all will be! It’s like the Jack Acid Society Black Book! The great triumph of human reason will be when TSS puts himself on his ignore list, and vanishes up his own personal black hole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-is-a-genocide-denier/696561.md?page=7)