# tomndebb, please explain why I was noted for saying Jew-bros. **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 31, 2015, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248 "2015-10-31T08:26:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/141 "2015-11-01T13:45:15Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Is all insult racist in your world view? The construction that uses Jew as an adjective is offensive. Regardless whether it is perceived as racist, religious bigotry, or some other form of insult, it is insulting. So it’s not a racist insult, it’s just an insult which is racist (since i already said I was talking about ethnicity, not religion) :dubious: > [@](#): > > Are you OK with a poster using Hottentot directed against an off-board group? No, just like I’m not OK with nigger, kike, white trash, raghead or a whole bunch of racial insults. “Jew”, on the other hand, seems to be situationally-dependent. See: jewfro, or those social media cites I just posted. Or the Jews\* in this thread\* who said they didn’t view it as insulting. > [@](#): > > using Jew as adjective is every bit as insulting as Hottentot. Didn’t use it as an adjective, used it as a prefix. > [@](#): > > That you are unaware of this means that I did not regard your use as deliberately inflammatory and simply told you to not do it again. Which I’ve said I wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/142 "2015-11-01T13:48:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I agree with Tom’s moderation here, and only wish he were consistent in moderating similarly eyebrow-raising language used to reference black people. Hence this thread. > [@](#): > > **MrDibble** , it’s past time you acknowledge that your usage here is problematic. I acknowledge that it’s potentially problematic because of the “Jew XXX” construction always being so, but I don’t think it’s _inherently_ so, because a) antisemitism wasn’t my intent and b) jewfro and c) current nonpejorative usage on social media (not just by Jews, also by friends of Jews). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/143 "2015-11-01T13:49:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Didn’t use it as an adjective, used it as a prefix. This is silly. You used it before a noun to clarify which sort of noun you were talking about. Whether it was attached to the word or not is immaterial: you used it in the way that’s generally considered offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/144 "2015-11-01T13:50:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Or the Jews\* in this thread\* who said they didn’t view it as insulting. Hey look! It’s the ‘some of my best friends are XXX’ argument back from the dead! Yes, some have said it isn’t. Some - me, at least - have said it feels that it is. Wouldn’t best practices be to avoid it? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/145 "2015-11-01T13:57:42Z")
Disclaimer: I hate these multiple quote responses so I’m going to boil it down. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m OK with insulting people for what they do, not what they are.Are you questioning my honesty?As the evidence in that thread shows, you’re not likely to be correct.That’s because AEPi is the _raison d’etre_ for the party. The point of the party was to advertise their introduction to the Greek community at SMU, as they’ve only been there a year. Also, maybe it’s silly to say this, but I expect way better from them than the already notoriously shitty PiKE. 1. I’d ask why you feel the need to insult people at all, whether it’s for what they do or what they are. I think - at least here on the SDMB - it would be better to focus on discussion rather than insults of any kind. 2. I’m not questioning your honesty at all. Merely pointing out how you - like I’d wager the fraternities involved - were being unintentionally offensive. There’s no dishonesty there, merely a need for education. 3. On the subject of the kids at the fraternity being racist, clearly we disagree. I’m much more likely to go with the ‘idiot kids learn a lesson’ than ‘racists learn a lesson’ model of the situation. 4. By your admission, the Jewish fraternity is being welcomed by an established fraternity. That would imply that the party is being organized by the established fraternity and therefore your focus on the Jewish one is puzzling at best. 5. I had little use for Greek culture on college campuses during my time in college, myself. However, it’s clear that you’re prejudiced against it to an extent that perhaps you’re not the proper one to be judging their actions. Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/146 "2015-11-01T13:57:55Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Hey look! It’s the ‘some of my best friends are XXX’ argument back from the dead! **Fenris** is far from my friend. > [@](#): > > Yes, some have said it isn’t. Some - me, at least - have said it feels that it is. Wouldn’t best practices be to avoid it? For the last time - I have said repeatedly **I’m not using it again**. The issue (for me ) is whether I was wrong/unintentionally racist to have the impulse to use it in the first place. So far, I’m not convinced. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/147 "2015-11-01T14:03:18Z")
[QUOTE=Jonathan Chance;188219321.] I’d ask why you feel the need to insult people at all, whether it’s for what they do or what they are. I think - at least here on the SDMB - it would be better to focus on discussion rather than insults of any kind. [/quote] Show your feelings for a bunch of off-board racist fratboys - without being insulting at all? Is that really the standard you want to hold us to? > [@](#): > > 1. I’m not questioning your honesty at all. Merely pointing out how you - like I’d wager the fraternities involved - were being unintentionally offensive. There’s no dishonesty there, merely a need for education. There was nothing unintentional about the frats’ offensiveness. > [@](#): > > 1. On the subject of the kids at the fraternity being racist, clearly we disagree. I’m much more likely to go with the ‘idiot kids learn a lesson’ than ‘racists learn a lesson’ model of the situation. One is a subset of the other - they’re idiot kids, and their racism is a function of their idiocy. > [@](#): > > 1. By your admission, the Jewish fraternity is being welcomed by an established fraternity. That would imply that the party is being organized by the established fraternity and therefore your focus on the Jewish one is puzzling at best. The Jewish one is the _reason_ for the party. Why wouldn’t I focus on them. > [@](#): > > 1. I had little use for Greek culture on college campuses during my time in college, myself. However, it’s clear that you’re prejudiced against it to an extent that perhaps you’re not the proper one to be judging their actions. Just a thought. Errm, no. It’s not _prejudice_, it’s just _judging_ - by their actions. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/148 "2015-11-01T14:23:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > … > For the last time - I have said repeatedly **I’m not using it again**. I missed your saying that. Thanks! I appreciate the consideration. > [@MrDibble](#): > > The issue (for me ) is whether I was wrong/unintentionally racist to have the impulse to use it in the first place. So far, I’m not convinced. my opinion? Yes, you unintentionally offended several readers. No, that didn’t make you racist, not even “unintentionally racist”, just a little tone-deaf. Very different things. And sorry, I see no significant difference between Jew bro, Jew-bro, and Jewbro. They are linguistically nearly the same thing, as well as being indistinguishable when spoken. And I’ve learned I should stop using the word “thug”. Not that I use it much, but the meaning I ascribe to it appears to be obsolete. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/149 "2015-11-01T14:30:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > For the last time - I have said repeatedly **I’m not using it again**. I, for one, have not even considered the possibility that you would use it, again. It was a one-off incident. > [@MrDibble](#): > > The issue (for me ) is whether I was wrong/unintentionally racist to have the impulse to use it in the first place. So far, I’m not convinced. The issue, for me, is that you used a construction that is regarded as offensive, without attaching any particular -ism to it and without assuming that you were going out of your way to be offensive, but that I wanted to be sure was not repeated by you or anyone else. Hence the phrase “not appropriate” rather than “racist” or even “horribly offensive.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/150 "2015-11-01T14:44:35Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And I’ve learned I should stop using the word “thug”. Not that I use it much, but the meaning I ascribe to it appears to be obsolete. It’s not obsolete. It will become obsolete, though, if everyone freaks out and follows the PC crowd in banishing it. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/151 "2015-11-01T14:57:21Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yes! Jewish baker is acceptable common English. Jew banker is used to offend or demean. > > Your own cite suggests avoiding the use of “Jew” as a verb or adjective. Then the statement, on that site, that “Jew’s Harp” is not offensive is wrong? I’m sure there are people who would be offended by a “good morning sir,” too. Clearly, the thrust of that cite, even the ADL is the the word “Jew” is not offensive. Substituting Jew for Jewish is not offensive. Adding other words to it can make it offensive, but that’s not the case here. If using Jewish brothers is permissible. (in the context of referring to Jewish members of a fraternity obviously) How is Jew Bros offensive? Is Christian Bros offensive? Atheist Bros? Muslim Bros? I think people see the word “Jew” and go into “find the hidden insult” mode, and insult is not always the intent of the speaker. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/152 "2015-11-01T15:02:12Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Then the statement, on that site, that “Jew’s Harp” is not offensive is wrong? That’s not using it as an adjective. > [@](#): > > I’m sure there are people who would be offended by a “good morning sir,” too. > > Clearly, the thrust of that cite, even the ADL is the the word “Jew” is not offensive. Substituting Jew for Jewish is not offensive. Adding other words to it can make it offensive, but that’s not the case here. > > If using Jewish brothers is permissible. (in the context of referring to Jewish members of a fraternity obviously) > How is Jew Bros offensive? > > Is Christian Bros offensive? > Atheist Bros? > Muslim Bros? > > I think people see the word “Jew” and go into “find the hidden insult” mode, and insult is not always the intent of the speaker. There’s a history of using “Jew” as an adjective before an occupation or classification of person being pejorative. These kinds of histories are what make certain words pejorative and slurs and not others. Since there’s no such history for “Christian banker” or similar, then these usages aren’t pejoratives. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/153 "2015-11-01T15:14:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The issue, for me, is that you used a construction that is regarded as offensive, without attaching any particular -ism to it and without assuming that you were going out of your way to be offensive, but that I wanted to be sure was not repeated by you or anyone else. Hence the phrase “not appropriate” rather than “racist” or even “horribly offensive.” So, you think it _was_ offensive by its construction alone, but that I didn’t mean it to be offensive in the way that people who find it offensive would consider it offensive, is that about right? Care to explain _why_ that construction is regarded as offensive, if not for antisemitism? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/154 "2015-11-01T15:16:36Z")
And care to comment on how the overwhelming social media usage of that same neologism is _not_ pejorative? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/155 "2015-11-01T15:38:52Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Then the statement, on that site, that “Jew’s Harp” is not offensive is wrong? > I’m sure there are people who would be offended by a “good morning sir,” too. > > Clearly, the thrust of that cite, even the ADL is the the word “Jew” is not offensive. Substituting Jew for Jewish is not offensive. Adding other words to it can make it offensive, but that’s not the case here. > > If using Jewish brothers is permissible. (in the context of referring to Jewish members of a fraternity obviously) > How is Jew Bros offensive? > > Is Christian Bros offensive? > Atheist Bros? > Muslim Bros? > > I think people see the word “Jew” and go into “find the hidden insult” mode, and insult is not always the intent of the speaker. Next Saturday, walk into your nearest Synagogue and ask if there are any Jew Doctors there. See what kind of reception you get. The next day, do the same at a Church, but ask if there are any Christian Doctors there. See what kind of reception you get. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/156 "2015-11-01T15:42:49Z")
[From Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro): > [@](#): > > A Jewfro (portmanteau of the words Jew and afro) or Isro (portmanteau of the words Israel and afro) refers to a curly hairstyle worn by certain people usually of Ashkenazi Jewish descent, who often have very tightly curled hair. Similar hairdos worn by non-Jewish people are usually considered, with humor, to be Jewfros. Its name is inspired by the afro hairstyle, which it resembles. The term is not limited to Jews, and is sometimes applied to the less than full standing hairstyle sometimes called a ‘Half-fro’. I’ve never heard anyone consider it hate speech. John’s usage was clearly intended with humor, this is much ado about nothing under the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/157 "2015-11-01T15:45:21Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yes, you unintentionally offended several readers. No, that didn’t make you racist, not even “unintentionally racist”, just a little tone-deaf. I have been harping on this lately, but whether or not the person _is_ racist as a state of being is not the only point and sometimes is not the point at all. Someone else agreeing that “I’m not a racist” doesn’t get you off the hook from saying things or doing things that might have a racist effect in context. Your principle concern shouldn’t be “does that _make me_ a racist?” It should be “am I thinking, saying, or doing something in a way that given the total context of our society and culture might be racist and if ur is part of a system of racism that harms people should I be changing something?” We are all racist in one way or another, but bu engaging in these constant battles with ourselves we have vastly improved our society but we have yet to stop harming people with racism so we need to keep at it. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/158 "2015-11-01T15:55:46Z")
They came for the “real” racists and I said nothing (actually I heartily endorsed it). Then they came for me and I didn’t like it one bit. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/159 "2015-11-01T16:03:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Next Saturday, walk into your nearest Synagogue and ask if there are any Jew Doctors there. See what kind of reception you get. > > The next day, do the same at a Church, but ask if there are any Christian Doctors there. See what kind of reception you get. If only it were the case that the language surrounding fraternity parties was expected to be the same as that that is appropriate for house of worship. It’s not. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248/160 "2015-11-01T16:07:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s not obsolete. It will become obsolete, though, if everyone freaks out and follows the PC crowd in banishing it. Which is precisely the game they play. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomndebb-please-explain-why-i-was-noted-for-saying-jew-bros/736248.md?page=9)