# Tonights special: apologist apoplexy du rjung **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 17, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068 "2006-05-17T03:27:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/121 "2006-05-18T15:26:46Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Okay, under what circumstances would a tax cut not be a good idea? How about during a time of war - as far as I’ve heard, no civilization ever cut taxes while simultaneously going to war, until we did. [/QUOTE] I really don’t wish to get into a debate about the economics of various tax policies here. All I wished to point out is that just because you don’t see evidence of regard for the implication of the Bush tax cuts on future events, you are almost certainly wrong that such things were not considered. Your particular concerns may have been _dismissed_ in favor of the concerns of Bush (and his advisors and campaign contributors), but they were almost certainly discussed and considered. > [@](#): > > Forgot to add that we might have used the surplus to shore up social security when we had the opportunity, and as the Democrats had been pushing for. After all, that was my money that was borrowed over years in exchange for a cabinet full of T-bills in an office in Philadelphia. Nice that the top one percent are owed more in some sort of tax cut than the middle class deserves to be paid back. I won’t argue with that. Except to say that the Democrats had a chance when they controlled both the executive and the legislative branches to just such a thing. Their plan, however, was really to do nothing. Except say, “Hey! We’re gonna have a budget surplus soon. Social Security is safe for 40 years.” They, too, failed to undertake any actions which would continue to adequately fund Social Security in the event of an economic downturn. Whether Social Security is worthy of such efforts and funding is a whole other argument - one which I also won’t undertake here. Suffice it to say though, that perhaps the Bush advisors had a different priority (and/or plan) for the SS fund than you or the Democrats. Again, this would not mean funding Social Security was “disregarded.” ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/122 "2006-05-18T15:46:55Z")
Unless I’ve missed something, there seems to be something missing from this thread: Mr. Jung hisself. But then, his user name _does_ come at the end of a rather long title, and perhaps his attention span has been too short for him to see his name on the marquis. Apologetically, yr hmbl & obed srvt JBMouse Yes, I know how to spell marquee ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/123 "2006-05-18T15:58:49Z")
[QUOTE=UncleBeer] There is a school of economic thought, and a fairly mainstream one, that claims in times of a stagnant economy, deficit spending by the government can be a good thing. And, of course, it’s very hard to argue that when the government is running a surplus that it should not be returned to the taxpayers. These two things **can** both be logical and rational positions. [/QUOTE] Deficit spending is not the same thing as a tax cut. It was the administration’s position that a tax cut would, in fact, increase revenue - the last free-roaming Laffers in the world are in the White House. It was, of course, bullshit. Revenue is still below Clinton’s last budget. A tax cut that, by far, the vast majority of the help of which goes to those at the top is not held by many this side of 1990 to be a cure for a stagnant economy. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/124 "2006-05-18T16:24:34Z")
[QUOTE=UncleBeer] I really don’t wish to get into a debate about the economics of various tax policies here. [/QUOTE] Of course. This is a different thread. To bring it back to within the realm of the OP, let me restate a point from the end of my rant above. I propose that, if personal responsibility is a component of being a conservative, supporters of this administration cannot be considered conservative. This is particularly true of those for whom the apologist label applies; those who are reflexive defenders of nearly all of Bush’s actions. I have no problem setting **Scylla** squarely within that camp. Personal accountability would seem to go hand in hand with accountability, and it is lickspittles like **Scylla** who have helped to keep this administration free from accountability (including the “accountability moment” in 2004). If the Republican party had anything remotely to do with personal responsibility, there would never have been a “Delay Rule,” the investigation of the use of pre-war intelligence would not still be pending, and any of a number of examples of corruption would be investigated and denounced. **Scylla** may cite an instance here or there where he himself ultimately came to be even marginally critical of the Bush adminstration, but I am quite sure that such came only after much argument, defending, deflecting and waiting and seeing. One should not need to have their arm twisted to elicit personal accountability or responsibility. It’s more of a stand-up aspect of character. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/125 "2006-05-18T16:30:04Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Of course. This is a different thread. [/quote] Actually, if you (and bup) do want to take part in a reasonable discussion of tax policy and its effects on the economy, there’s a current thread in GD, [right here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=371031). I dunno if you guys are already participating in it, but it directly addresses some of the points your arguments here make. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/126 "2006-05-18T16:32:58Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] I propose that, if personal responsibility is a component of being a conservative, supporters of this administration cannot be considered conservative. [/quote] Absolutely I agree. There are several fronts on which the current administration should not be judged as conservative - including the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/127 "2006-05-18T16:41:17Z")
[QUOTE=Zakalwe] Huh. Okay, I looked up supercilious. [/QUOTE] ::whispering:: Me too. :o ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/128 "2006-05-18T16:47:53Z")
[QUOTE=UncleBeer] There are several fronts on which the current administration should not be judged as conservative - including the economy. [/QUOTE] Damn those neo-Jacobin liberals who have taken over the Grand Old Party, ehh? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/129 "2006-05-19T01:42:47Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] **Scylla** is a perfect example of an enabling Republican whose interest has been the power of the party over the good of the country - willing to defend nearly any behavior by the Republicans in power and unwilling to check that power in any way. How often have you heard a Republican say “I don’t like what Republican leader X is doing, but I can’t vote for a Democrat!” How this actually reflects personal responsibility is beyond me. [/QUOTE] I’ve never heard that, and I stated more than once that I would have voted for Leiberman over Bush, so, as usual, you’re wrong. It’s a lot easier to create strawmen and knock those down than to deal with the actual people and arguments you’re facing, isn’t it? Sadly, the latter doesn’t appear to be an option to you. BTW, you drive one of those new Mustang v6s, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/130 "2006-05-19T01:56:47Z")
[QUOTE=Ukulele Ike] Kewl. I made a five-word post, and I got to be the fifth person Scylla lashed out at. [/QUOTE] I complained to you that Elvis suggested I was a troll, which is specifically against board rules. Are you going to do something about it, or are you moving from incompetence to willful negligence in the dereliction of your duties? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/131 "2006-05-19T02:03:57Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] I complained to you that Elvis suggested I was a troll, which is specifically against board rules. Are you going to do something about it, or are you moving from incompetence to willful negligence in the dereliction of your duties? [/QUOTE] Wasn’t Elvis referring to an earlier post of UncleBeers? I believe UncleBeer made the comment that you were “chumming for liberals” or something. Make of that what you will, and enjoy your junior moddery. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/132 "2006-05-19T02:09:48Z")
Ah. Here we go. UncleBeer in post [#56](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7402691&postcount=56) and Elvis responds in post [#62](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7403024&postcount=62). ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/133 "2006-05-19T02:11:18Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] I propose that, if personal responsibility is a component of being a conservative, supporters of this administration cannot be considered conservative.[/quoting] Ok. Let’s see where you’re going with this. > [@](#): > > This is particularly true of those for whom the apologist label applies; those who are reflexive defenders of nearly all of Bush’s actions. I have no problem setting **Scylla** squarely within that camp. Altering reality to fit your preconceptions by mischaracterizing others to suit your needs worked for Hitler, Jim Jones, Pat Robertson, Jack Chick and many other others, so I guess it can work for you. [quote] Personal accountability would seem to go hand in hand with accountability, and it is lickspittles like **Scylla** who have helped to keep this administration free from accountability (including the “accountability moment” in 2004). If the Republican party had anything remotely to do with personal responsibility, there would never have been a “Delay Rule,” the investigation of the use of pre-war intelligence would not still be pending, and any of a number of examples of corruption would be investigated and denounced. [/quote[ Ok, so here is the actual argument. “Accountability” means you’re supposed to have voted Democrat. Voting Republican in '04 means you’re against accountability. This is not a supporting argument. This is simply restating your thesis in the form of assuming your conclusion. I find it to be “sophmoric.” > [@](#): > > **Scylla** may cite an instance here or there where he himself ultimately came to be even marginally critical of the Bush adminstration, but I am quite sure that such came only after much argument, defending, deflecting and waiting and seeing. Of course you’re “sure.” “Sure” is easy when your mischaracterizations are based on preference and wishes. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/134 "2006-05-19T02:56:26Z")
::::yaaanw::::: Scylla’s is beingf a prominent member of the Usual Asssholes Cub. Once an asshole I do hear it’s hard to become “straight and formal.” Just one more example of how hyprocreay upp by leaps and bounds. Becaue, of course, Skella-ly ike characters have the ULTIMATE TRUTH. :::shrug:::: ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/135 "2006-05-19T03:16:49Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] ::::yaaanw::::: Scylla’s is beingf a prominent member of the Usual Asssholes Cub. Once an asshole I do hear it’s hard to become “straight and formal.” Just one more example of how hyprocreay upp by leaps and bounds. Becaue, of course, Skella-ly ike characters have the ULTIMATE TRUTH. :::shrug:::: [/QUOTE] Dude, I think I agree with that in general, but I gotta admit I am a little unclear as to the specifics of what the hell you are trying to say… ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/136 "2006-05-19T03:37:29Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Dude, I think I agree with that in general, but I gotta admit I am a little unclear as to the specifics of what the hell you are trying to say… [/QUOTE] Personally, I find drunken incoherence to be sophomoric, but if that’s your speed… ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/137 "2006-05-19T11:38:47Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] I complained to you that Elvis suggested I was a troll, which is specifically against board rules. Are you going to do something about it, or are you moving from incompetence to willful negligence in the dereliction of your duties? [/QUOTE] Someone call a waahmbulance! You stupid whiny ass puss, your problem should be with [UncleBeer](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7402691&postcount=56), not with Elvis, who was just trying to make clear what **UncleBeer** had said. Whaaaa! Someone help me - I’m being picked on! Unfortunately, you are very much a typical conservative. > [@](#): > > …I stated more than once that I would have voted for Leiberman over Bush, so, as usual, you’re wrong. Wow, you _would have_ voted for Lieberman. Whew! You _would have_ showed integrity, if only others had given you the opportunity. Boy, I guess I sure am wrong. You are, or _would have_ been, a real stand up guy. > [@](#): > > BTW, you drive one of those new Mustang v6s, don’t you? Yeah, thanks for asking. > [@](#): > > Altering reality to fit your preconceptions by mischaracterizing others to suit your needs worked for Hitler, Jim Jones, Pat Robertson, Jack Chick and many other others, so I guess it can work for you. Again, wow. Your insight is frighteningly illuminating. Calling you out as an apologist and suggesting that this is incompatible with being responsible and accountable is exactly what Hitler would have done. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/138 "2006-05-19T11:56:57Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Someone call a waahmbulance! You stupid whiny ass puss, your problem should be with [UncleBeer](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7402691&postcount=56), not with Elvis, who was just trying to make clear what **UncleBeer** had said. [/QUOTE] That ain’t what I meant at all. What I meant was the lefties were in a feeding frenzy 'cuz Scylla dropped a little meat in the water for you clowns. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/139 "2006-05-19T12:22:40Z")
[QUOTE=UncleBeer] That ain’t what I meant at all. What I meant was the lefties were in a feeding frenzy 'cuz Scylla dropped a little meat in the water for you clowns. [/QUOTE] Right. And my thought was, “What’s the difference between ‘chumming’ and ‘trolling’?” Which is exactly what **Elvis** was getting at. So why should **Scylla** whine “Mommy!” about **Elvis** , when you were the one who explicitly accused **Scylla** of “chumming”? What is the difference between “chumming” and “trolling”? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068/140 "2006-05-19T12:45:36Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] I think he’s a conservative taken to extremes. I did want to object to a perhaps unintended implication of your post, if one takes “liberal” to be the opposite of “conservative”: liberals are also for personal responsbility and the personal freedoms and risks that go with it. We just apply responsibility more “liberally” in that we accept responsibilty for more than just ourselves, but for our country, our environment, our economy, our relationships with others in the world… It was a liberal that suggested that we ask not what our country can do for us, but what we can do for our country. We recognize that unfettered self-interest is not advantageous for America, and for ourselves in the long run. In fact, I think Bush is the perfect microcosm (if a gloablly impactful example like this administration can be a “microcosm”) of conservative ideology. What happens if you enact tax cuts without regard for the future or the larger economy? What happens if you enact regressive economic policies? What happens if you encourage consumption of energy and fossil fuels? What happens if you act unilaterally in international policy matters and eschew diplomacy? So, I don’t think Bush is the best example of a functional Republican, such as we’ve had in the past, but is an example of what conservative policy looks like in the full light of day. The problem, in my opinion, is that too few of those who would like to see conservative policies enacted have been willing to actually be critical of the problematic way they’ve been enacted, or to help to limit the power of the current administration. **Scylla** is a perfect example of an enabling Republican whose interest has been the power of the party over the good of the country - willing to defend nearly any behavior by the Republicans in power and unwilling to check that power in any way. How often have you heard a Republican say “I don’t like what Republican leader X is doing, but I can’t vote for a Democrat!” How this actually reflects personal responsibility is beyond me. [/QUOTE] My comments have to be taken in context. Conservatives are known for being aginst making changes willy-nilly (they are conservative about change). They are supposed to be againt a bigger and more intrusive government. They are supposed to be a little more “isolationist” rahter than using the Team America approach. They supposedly are for respoinsibility (including their own), with a kind of “the buck stops here” attitude. At least, that is how they represent themselves (or used to). While pro-business, they are supposed to be against meddling in it - bailouts, perks, tax benefits for the un-needy. So yes, what we have now is not conservative. On the other hand, liberals are supposed to be for the Little Guy. They are the ones who tend to like the “give them a hand up but not a hand out” idea. They tend to be more in favor of change, but within sensible limits. What we have now, fuck if I know what it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tonights-special-apologist-apoplexy-du-rjung/357068.md?page=8)