# Tontines **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [July 21, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515 "2006-07-21T18:50:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Steven\_Estes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Steven\_Estes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steven_Estes)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515/1 "2006-07-21T18:50:06Z")
There’s an hilarious movie about tontines, The Wrong Box. It stars Michael Caine, Ralph Richardson, Dick Gregory, Dudley Moore, Peter Cook, and a bunch of others. It’s available on DVD ---
**Author:** ![from\_a\_to\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5fc32e/32.png) [@from\_a\_to\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/from_a_to_z)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515/2 "2006-07-22T02:29:30Z")
[What’s with tontines, the odd annuities in which you benefit when others die?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_172.html) The [book](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1404339418/sr=1-1/qid=1153534792/ref=sr_1_1/104-4831231-8735106?ie=UTF8&s=books), by R.L. Stevenson with stepson Lloyd Osbourne, is also fun and silly, an engaging and entertaining read. If neither the book nor the movie convinces you against tontines, then you’re welcome to subscribe to mine. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515/3 "2006-07-22T03:42:57Z")
Costain’s _The Tontine_ is probably his best book. Just make sure you don’t get the edition that stops at “End of Volume 1”. I’m still haunting the Goodwill for volume 2. Funny, years ago, all you could find was Volume 2. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![mgg4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b77776/32.png) [@mgg4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mgg4)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2006, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515/4 "2006-07-22T21:33:28Z")
There is also a M_A_S\*H episode where Colonel Potter is the final recipient of a tontine benefit. It appears tontines don’t have to be cash. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515/5 "2006-07-23T01:00:48Z")
And as long as we’re listing cultural references, The Simpsons also did an episode based on a tontine; Abe Simpsons and Monty Burns were the last two survivors. ---
**Author:** ![movingfinger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@movingfinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/movingfinger)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515/6 "2006-07-23T06:16:13Z")
Are tontines legal anywhere? ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515/7 "2006-07-24T06:59:33Z")
From Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > A tontine is an investment vehicle which combines features of a group annuity, group life insurance, and a lottery. > > The scheme is named after Neapolitan banker Lorenzo de Tonti, who is generally credited with inventing it in France in 1653. Some sources claim that similar schemes already existed in Italy, but there is no dispute that the popularity of the form was due to Tonti. > > The basic concept is simple. Each investor pays a sum into the tontine. The funds are invested and each investor receives dividends. As each investor dies, his or her share is divided amongst the surviving investors. This process continues until only one investor survives. Originally, the last surviving subscriber received only the dividends: the capital reverted to the state upon his or her death and was used to fund public works projects, which often contained the word “tontine” in their name. In a later variation, the capital would devolve upon the last survivor, effectively dissolving the trust, and it is this version that has often been the plot device for mysteries and detective stories. > > While once very popular in France, Britain, and the United States, **tontines have been banned in Britain and the United States** (my bolding) due to the incentive for investors to kill one another, thereby increasing their shares. Nevertheless, there are underground organizations in the US that still use the tontine, and ownership of a business or property by joint tenancy with right of survivorship has much the same effect. > > Tontines have often appeared in fiction, usually, but not always, as a motive for murder. > > In The Wrong Box, a novel by Robert Louis Stevenson, the object is to conceal the death of one of the last two investors. > A more innocuous tontine was the subject of a M_A_S\*H episode in which Colonel Potter, the last survivor of his World War I unit, inherits a bottle of brandy (the last of a cache the unit found) with which to toast the memory of his old comrades. > In an episode of The Simpsons, Grandpa and Mr. Burns, having entered into a tontine during World War II, struggle with one another over the treasure, a safe filled with contraband paintings. > A tontine is also used as a plot device in the novel Seventy Seven Clocks by Christopher Fowler, and in one of the Dr Syn books. > P.G. Wodehouse used a similar idea in his novel Something Fishy (The Butler Did It in the US.) In Wodehouse’s version, the money did not go to the last survivor, but to the last son of the investors who remained unmarried. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515/8 "2006-07-24T19:22:05Z")
[QUOTE=NinetyWt] In an episode of The Simpsons, Grandpa and Mr. Burns, having entered into a tontine during World War II, struggle with one another over the treasure, a safe filled with contraband paintings. [/QUOTE] This leads to the critical question: How did this episode turn out? I assume the safe burned up or the paintings were worthless. Anybody know? RR ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515/9 "2006-07-24T19:38:52Z")
[QUOTE=RiverRunner] This leads to the critical question: How did this episode turn out? I assume the safe burned up or the paintings were worthless. Anybody know? RR [/QUOTE] The paintings were claimed by the heir of the original owners (they were stolen from a German family during WWII). JRB ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515/10 "2006-07-24T21:24:06Z")
As noted in the Wikipedia article, joint tenancies with right of survivorship are similar to the tontines of popular imagination (although not apparently to the traditional tontine where the capital escheats to the State). They’re pretty common – my wife and I have a JTWROS in the car we co-purchased before we were married. (Which I’m told is a bad idea because of liability concerns.) The JTWROS requires “the four unities” – the joint tenants get their interests at the same time, have the same title (that is, no tenant’s interest is conditioned or burdened differently), have the same share of the property (1/2 for two joint tenants, 1/11th for 11 tenants, etc.), and all tenants have full right of possession – no other tenant can bar them from use of the whole property. But unlike a tontine, it’s easy to get out of a joint tenancy if you want, and with the four unities there is some protection from the unsavory aspects of the tontine. But there might still be situations where joint tenants would kill each other for the property. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Ciabella](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bc79bd/32.png) [@Ciabella](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ciabella)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515/11 "2006-07-26T09:03:39Z")
[QUOTE=from\_a\_to\_z] The [book](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1404339418/sr=1-1/qid=1153534792/ref=sr_1_1/104-4831231-8735106?ie=UTF8&s=books), by R.L. Stevenson with stepson Lloyd Osbourne, is also fun and silly, an engaging and entertaining read. If neither the book nor the movie convinces you against tontines, then you’re welcome to subscribe to mine. [/QUOTE] If you want to read the book, you can forego the $12.99 plus shipping and read it online [here](http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/1585). ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Prentiss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b38774/32.png) [@Carol\_Prentiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Prentiss)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2006, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515/12 "2006-07-28T01:33:11Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Costain’s _The Tontine_ is probably his best book. Just make sure you don’t get the edition that stops at “End of Volume 1”. I’m still haunting the Goodwill for volume 2. Funny, years ago, all you could find was Volume 2. Go figure. [/QUOTE] Well - Lucky me - I have both, volumes 1 and 2. Bought them in a Library Used Book Sale in Arvada, Colo. many years ago. I´d loan you my copy, but it´s in storage in Idaho and I´m living in Brasil. Good hunting! ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2006, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515/13 "2006-07-28T02:50:03Z")
[QUOTE=JR Brown] The paintings were claimed by the heir of the original owners (they were stolen from a German family during WWII). JRB [/QUOTE] Macht schnell with da pretty pictures! ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2006, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tontines/365515/14 "2006-07-28T11:05:20Z")
[QUOTE=JR Brown] The paintings were claimed by the heir of the original owners (they were stolen from a German family during WWII). JRB [/QUOTE] As I recall that epsiode, the State Department decided the ‘rightful owner’ was a descendent of Adolf Hitler. Thus the two small-time thieves get outdone by a descendent of one of the big criminals of that war.