# Tony Snow dies. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 12, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243 "2008-07-12T15:34:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/341 "2008-07-14T02:06:59Z")
Oh, sure! First, you inflict all this suffering on the members of Snow’s family who read these boards…every single one of them, weeping in despair and misery in The Pit…after this cruel, inhuman, and entirely theoretical outrage, now you call our Heroes “tools”! I’m shocked and sickened at such abject and abstract cruelty! Your horrid cruelty is only lessened by the fact that the victims don’t know that you are alive, and feel no impact from your opinions, or, for that matter, your very existence. But, boy, if they did, they might be hurt! So, in a theoretical and intangible way, you are a very, very bad person. This puts you right on the level of evil of those you excoriate, save only that their victims were directly affected by their actions, in a tangible way, and are now actually dead. Details, niggling details… But other than that, you vile evil is precisely the same! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/342 "2008-07-14T02:11:46Z")
I can’t tell if you guys are whoshing or not, however you spell it. I’m going over to MPSIMS to look at cat pictures. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/343 "2008-07-14T02:30:16Z")
Good plan. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/344 "2008-07-14T02:51:15Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The troops are doing their jobs, and they were sent there _without_ the knowledge that it was all for a lie. [/quote] Gotta disagree on that. It was already a widespread, even majority, public opinion \*before \* the invasion. But there were many other rationalizations for it being a “good war” offered that did sound good at the time, and to a large fraction still do. > [@](#): > > They lack the complicity of their civilian leadership. They’re just tools, like the tanks and the helicopters. They’re also victims. To the extent that being under orders takes away their free will, yes, certainly. The ones that have gone beyond that, whether in the court-martial cases we know of or not, are certainly responsible for having done so. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/345 "2008-07-14T04:05:03Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The troops are doing their jobs, and they were sent there _without_ the knowledge that it was all for a lie. They lack the complicity of their civilian leadership. They’re just tools, like the tanks and the helicopters. They’re also victims. [/QUOTE] Of course, there’s where you and **DT** differ; he subscribes fully to the argument **Elvis** advances, to the nth degree, without exception or acknowledgment of any other possible mitigation. So where do you draw the line of “should have known”? How high up should it go? Should the troops that read the news regularly be more to blame than those who don’t? Would you treat those who had doubts, but went anyway, any differently than those who never thought about it? It’s a hard line to draw. Obviously, it’s been done before; not every Nazi soldier was tried for war crimes. But someone had to have limits in mind - I’m curious about yours. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/346 "2008-07-14T04:11:39Z")
[QUOTE=Leaper] Of course, there’s where you and **DT** differ; he subscribes fully to the argument **Elvis** advances, to the nth degree, without exception or acknowledgment of any other possible mitigation. So where do you draw the line of “should have known”? How high up should it go? Should the troops that read the news regularly be more to blame than those who don’t? Would you treat those who had doubts, but went anyway, any differently than those who never thought about it? It’s a hard line to draw. Obviously, it’s been done before; not every Nazi soldier was tried for war crimes. But someone had to have limits in mind - I’m curious about yours. [/QUOTE] “Should have known,” is not enough for me. Having doubts is not a good enough reason for military personel not to do their jobs. My contempt is for those who unquestionably _did_ know. ETA, when it comes to military personel, I am of course, not talking about acts or crimes which they _know_ are illegal (e.g. Abu Ghraib), but military actions that they are ordered to carry out which they do not _know_ to be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Lama\_Pacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Lama\_Pacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lama_Pacos)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/347 "2008-07-14T04:28:43Z")
Has America turned into a nation of moral relativists? It’s absurd, the hoops people will jump through to avoid confronting frank analysis of the basic moral repurcussions of actions taken by individuals and institutions. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/348 "2008-07-14T10:23:04Z")
[QUOTE=Leaper] The problem is, it seems that some folks in this thread don’t buy that **Dio’s** regret was at all sincere. Here’s a question for discussion (I’m trying not to take sides here, but I’m really curious about this point): what difference, if any, is there between **Dio’s** comments and beliefs about Snow and **Der Trihs’** statements about American soldiers in Iraq deserving death? I’d like to hear opinions from both sides on this one. As I said, I’m genuinely trying to think this through. [/QUOTE] For me, **Dio** ’s joy at Snow’s painful death is, as I said to **prr** earlier in this thread, tasteless and kinda sad. It doesn’t upset me at all, it’s just slightly repulsive. I find the equivalence of Snow and Goebbels far more disturbing than the _schadenfreude_ about Snow’s demise. On the other hand, when I first started reading **Der Trihs** ’s despicable bile about US servicemen, I felt a visceral urge to reach through the monitor and pound the shit out of him. It doesn’t affect me that way now, because I’ve come to realize that he’s not quite all there, but his sentiments are far more loathsome, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/349 "2008-07-14T10:25:50Z")
[QUOTE=Lama Pacos] Has America turned into a nation of moral relativists? It’s absurd, the hoops people will jump through to avoid confronting frank analysis of the basic moral repurcussions of actions taken by individuals and institutions. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry - what does this mean? Which posters are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/350 "2008-07-14T10:58:26Z")
[QUOTE=Lama Pacos] Has America turned into a nation of moral relativists? It’s absurd, the hoops people will jump through to avoid confronting frank analysis of the basic moral repurcussions of actions taken by individuals and institutions. [/QUOTE] Yes. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/351 "2008-07-14T11:49:42Z")
Just to muddy the waters- by this time, are there really that many US soldiers left in Iraq who were sent before it became known that Saddam posed little to no threat to us? Haven’t the vast majority of them joined the military since then? Aren’t they knowingly complicit in Bush’s “crimes”? Of course, I don’t believe this, but it is a logical conclusion for those who believe we’re in a criminal war. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/352 "2008-07-14T13:22:35Z")
[QUOTE=Lama Pacos] Has America turned into a nation of moral relativists? [/QUOTE] The trouble is that the traditional moral absolutists have suddenly taken it into their heads that it’s OK to torture and kill hundreds of thousands just so they can feel a bit safer at home. This leaves the relativists who rely on the principle of being ‘just a little bit more sinful’ than the absolutists, in a bit of a pickle. How can they now achieve their cherished extra bit of sin? For some, the _extra_ badness comes out in strange ways. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/353 "2008-07-14T13:57:33Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Just to muddy the waters- by this time, are there really that many US soldiers left in Iraq who were sent before it became known that Saddam posed little to no threat to us? Haven’t the vast majority of them joined the military since then? Aren’t they knowingly complicit in Bush’s “crimes”? [/QUOTE] There’s a war/peacekeeping effort going on whether or not you think the original invasion was a good idea. Enlisting today with the knowledge that you’ll probably be sent to Iraq is no different than voting to keep troops there based on the responsibility we now have to the Iraqi people. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/354 "2008-07-14T14:54:05Z")
[QUOTE=Fuji] …On the other hand, when I first started reading **Der Trihs** ’s despicable bile about US servicemen, I felt a visceral urge to reach through the monitor and pound the shit out of him. It doesn’t affect me that way now, because I’ve come to realize that he’s not quite all there, but his sentiments are far more loathsome, in my opinion. [/QUOTE] As much as I regret it, he has a point. Being an American, my reaction is very much like yours But we are Americans, our people are precious to us regardless of the weight of circumstance. But the ugly truth is that they are invaders, they are where they ought not to be and were not invited. When other nations are invaded, and the invaders resisted, we tend to regard that resistance as justified and patriotic, no? When have you ever heard anyone condemn the “terrorism” of the French Resistance, for example. The rest of the world is not American, the sympanthy and respect we once had is long gone. They don’t see it as we do and there is no reason that they should. Its not the **Der** doesn’t have a point, its that I wish he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/355 "2008-07-14T15:06:36Z")
Well, it’s one thing to say you understand why some Iraqis would be motivated to kill US soldiers, but it’s another thing to wish for them to do so. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/356 "2008-07-14T15:36:50Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] As much as I regret it, he has a point. Being an American, my reaction is very much like yours But we are Americans, our people are precious to us regardless of the weight of circumstance. But the ugly truth is that they are invaders, they are where they ought not to be and were not invited. When other nations are invaded, and the invaders resisted, we tend to regard that resistance as justified and patriotic, no? When have you ever heard anyone condemn the “terrorism” of the French Resistance, for example. [/QUOTE] You paint a false equivalence. While the French resistance was defending their home, the fight against the Nazis _inside_ Germany was justified, as well. The term “invaders”, as you well know, is loaded, having strong connotations of a “conquering” flavor. Something that points to the taking over of a town or country. While you might like to paint it that way as much as you can, it completely disregards that we we’re removing a murderous dictator, taking preemptive action to protect America (yes, a whole other debate), and will be leaving without sacking the country. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/357 "2008-07-14T15:39:15Z")
So, then what do we say,\*\* John?\*\* Do we say that we wish that these people (who are entirely within their rights), _they_ should be the ones to die? I do, of course. But I’m wrong, aren’t I? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/358 "2008-07-14T15:45:45Z")
Those aren’t the only two alternatives. I wish that nobody dies. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/359 "2008-07-14T15:49:46Z")
From your lips to the Ears. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243/360 "2008-07-14T15:55:16Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] You paint a false equivalence. While the French resistance was defending their home, the fight against the Nazis _inside_ Germany was justified, as well. The term “invaders”, as you well know, is loaded, having strong connotations of a “conquering” flavor. Something that points to the taking over of a town or country. While you might like to paint it that way as much as you can, it completely disregards that we we’re removing a murderous dictator, taking preemptive action to protect America (yes, a whole other debate), and will be leaving without sacking the country. [/QUOTE] It’s irrelevant to the comparison that we were were (illegally) removing a dictator, and it’s simply false that it had anything to do with protecting the US. From the perspective of the Iraqi people, it was very much an invasion and occupation, and it was one which killed thousands of civilians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tony-snow-dies/456243.md?page=19)