# Too big to be nailed - what to do about that? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107 "2010-04-23T15:26:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/1 "2010-04-23T15:26:15Z")
Recently I read about a big pharmaceutical company (I think it was Pfizer) who was accused of marketing a drug in an unapproved way and that the penalty for doing so would be to refuse to allow them to do business with Medicare or Medicaid. This would effectively put them out of business and put thousands if not millions of people out of work. Since no one wants that, is there some other sanction Congress could implement to prevent such firms from attempting such actions in the future? Would it exceed Congress’s authority to expose the executive staff to personal liability or criminal penalties for the company’s malfeasance (assuming it was policy and not the unsanctioned actions of an employee)? If so, how else might a firm be penalized without wrecking the lives of innocent employees? Thanks, Rob ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/2 "2010-04-23T15:31:10Z")
I suppose one way to punish them would be to shorten or revoke their patent protection for the offending drug. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/3 "2010-04-23T15:40:10Z")
The drug was a pain killer approved for use in special and rare circumstances. Pfizer immediately sent representatives to doctors and hospitals touting it as a safe drug . They gave gifts, bribes, vacations and everything they could think of to get doctors to use it regularly. I read that about 1000 needless deaths resulted. For some patients, their skin fell off . There were lots of people who got very sick. But that is balanced by Pfizer making billions. It is America ,how can you find fault with companies making lots of money? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/4 "2010-04-23T15:42:20Z")
Put the top two or three people in charge in prison and let the ones that move up to fill in the slots know that if this crap happens again, they’re next. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/5 "2010-04-23T15:56:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Put the top two or three people in charge in prison and let the ones that move up to fill in the slots know that if this crap happens again, they’re next. I think that’s it. Same with the financial sector. I’d even consider a death penalty or life sentence for crimes over a 100 million dollars or so. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/6 "2010-04-23T15:58:49Z")
There is a diabetes drug, Avandia, that gets re-released every so often that has a tendency to cause death by heart disease and increased hospitalization due to heart failure. The studies show it as effective at treating some symptoms of diabetes, but the deaths and or hear failure tend to cast a pall, as does the memory in the diabetic community. Pfizer is not the only company like that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/7 "2010-04-23T16:01:50Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I think that’s it. Same with the financial sector. I’d even consider a death penalty or life sentence for crimes over a 100 million dollars or so. That’s it. If you want the power, you have to be willing to take the responsibility, to paraphrase Uncle Ben. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/8 "2010-04-23T16:39:06Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > Recently I read about a big pharmaceutical company (I think it was Pfizer) who was accused of marketing a drug in an unapproved way and that the penalty for doing so would be to refuse to allow them to do business with Medicare or Medicaid. This would effectively put them out of business and put thousands if not millions of people out of work. Since no one wants that, is there some other sanction Congress could implement to prevent such firms from attempting such actions in the future? Would it exceed Congress’s authority to expose the executive staff to personal liability or criminal penalties for the company’s malfeasance (assuming it was policy and not the unsanctioned actions of an employee)? If so, how else might a firm be penalized without wrecking the lives of innocent employees? > > Thanks, > Rob Search the BBQ Pit. \*\*Elucidator \*\*started a thread about this within the last month. Some good ideas at remedies were tossed around. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/9 "2010-04-23T17:59:51Z")
Well, you could get Yoko Ono to seduce one of the board members… (obscure, likely unfunny pop-culture reference humour) ---
**Author:** ![Alpha\_Twit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alpha_twit/32/265_2.png) [@Alpha\_Twit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alpha_Twit)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/10 "2010-04-23T18:36:44Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > Recently I read about a big pharmaceutical company (I think it was Pfizer) who was accused of marketing a drug in an unapproved way and that the penalty for doing so would be to refuse to allow them to do business with Medicare or Medicaid. This would effectively put them out of business and put thousands if not millions of people out of work. Since no one wants that… -snip- I wouldn’t so _no one_. I’ve got no vast problem with it. It’s a hell of an effective lesson for the next group of CEOs. The instant you start assuming that any company is too big to be allowed to fail then you’ve granted them executive authority over the government. How many people think this is a good idea? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/11 "2010-04-23T19:00:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Search the BBQ Pit. \*\*Elucidator \*\*started a thread about this within the last month. Some good ideas at remedies were tossed around. [Right here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=558372) > [@Alpha\_Twit](#): > > I wouldn’t so _no one_. I’ve got no vast problem with it. It’s a hell of an effective lesson for the next group of CEOs. The instant you start assuming that any company is too big to be allowed to fail then you’ve granted them executive authority over the government. Not necessarily. In the case of a company that is collapsing for financial reasons the government can attach all sorts of strings to any money it hands over in support. In the case of criminal acts on the part of the corporation the government could as said toss the bosses in jail, or impose fines as large as the company can sustain without being destroyed. I lean towards the former; corporations aren’t sentient and don’t really care what happens to them; the people who run them are sentient and will care. Especially if we started putting them in real prisons, and not the “Club Fed” versions for the wealthy. ---
**Author:** ![cdsilv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cdsilv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cdsilv)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/12 "2010-04-26T15:41:17Z")
I like the China solution to stuff like this - execute the CEO’s and let the replacements know that they will share the same fate for similar activity (poinsoning baby food, pet food etc…) ---
**Author:** ![williamweigand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b3f665/32.png) [@williamweigand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/williamweigand)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/13 "2010-04-26T19:10:11Z")
Love the OP/username combo - was sure this thread was going to be about crucifixion. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/14 "2010-04-26T22:17:49Z")
> [@williamweigand](#): > > Love the OP/username combo - was sure this thread was going to be about crucifixion. I thought it was going to involve either extremely fat women, or large wooden construction. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/15 "2010-04-26T23:56:53Z")
While I would agree that withdrawing the patent would be a fitting punishment in this case, I don’t think that’s consistent with the laws as they now stand. Change the laws so the next pharmaceutical company that pulls something like this can lose their patent, fine, but don’t make it ex post facto. Unfortunately, it’s difficult to anticipate every possible situation like this before it actually comes up, and so structure the laws such that the appropriate penalty is always available. But that’s the price we pay for living in a society under the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/16 "2010-04-27T01:23:58Z")
I’ve got a good idea… How about letting them sell what they want, and you don’t have to take it if you don’t like it. If they release a drug that hurts people, the resulting civil liability with do plenty of damage. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/17 "2010-04-27T01:46:27Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I’ve got a good idea… How about letting them sell what they want, and you don’t have to take it if you don’t like it. If they release a drug that hurts people, the resulting civil liability with do plenty of damage. And people will likely die, but who cares? Profit is far more important than human life, right? If someone is fooled into taking a dangerous drug and dies in agony, that just proves that they were worthless scum who deserved it. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/18 "2010-04-27T06:25:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > While I would agree that withdrawing the patent would be a fitting punishment in this case, I don’t think that’s consistent with the laws as they now stand. Change the laws so the next pharmaceutical company that pulls something like this can lose their patent, fine, but don’t make it ex post facto. Ah, but they can extract acquiescence in settlement agreements. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/19 "2010-04-27T06:41:34Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I’ve got a good idea… How about letting them sell what they want, and you don’t have to take it if you don’t like it. If they release a drug that hurts people, the resulting civil liability with do plenty of damage. They don’t seem to be doing enough damage to prevent this from happening. If you get a few billion dollars per year from a drug, a $1 billion fine isn’t a deterrent, it’s a sales expense. And the civil penalties are usually even less than the fines. [Another one of these settlements was announced today:](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/27/business/27drug.html) > [@](#): > > AstraZeneca has completed a deal to pay $520 million to settle federal investigations into marketing practices for its blockbuster schizophrenia drug, Seroquel. > […] > In the largest such case, Pfizer paid $2.3 billion last September, including $1.3 billion in the biggest criminal fine of any type in United States history, for off-label marketing of the painkiller Bextra and other drugs. Bextra was withdrawn from the market in 2005. The Pfizer fine included $301 million for off-label marketing of its antipsychotic drug Geodon. > > Eli Lilly paid $1.4 billion in January 2009 to settle investigations into illegal marketing of its antipsychotic drug Zyprexa. Lilly’s settlement included a $515 million criminal fine, which until the Pfizer case was the largest such fine ever imposed on a corporation. > > In 2007, Bristol-Myers Squibb and a subsidiary paid $515 million to settle federal and state investigations into marketing of its antipsychotic drug Abilify. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107/20 "2010-04-27T08:57:09Z")
> [@lee](#): > > There is a diabetes drug, Avandia, that gets re-released every so often that has a tendency to cause death by heart disease and increased hospitalization due to heart failure. The studies show it as effective at treating some symptoms of diabetes, but the deaths and or hear failure tend to cast a pall, as does the memory in the diabetic community. Pfizer is not the only company like that. So it’s like the pharmaceutical industry’s version of the McRib Sandwich? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-big-to-be-nailed-what-to-do-about-that/537107.md?page=2)