# Too many files? NTFS spews data like tubgirl. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 8, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128 "2004-07-08T15:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/1 "2004-07-08T15:55:40Z")
I am in awe. NTFS has its head stuck so far up its own ass that it’s breathing colon fumes. Actually, I misrepresent NTFS, because I’m actually pitting it for not being flexible enough. You think Bob Dole comes off as stiff? Insert Viagra joke here? Compared to NTFS, Bob Dole looks like Dave Letterman with twenty-inch wang (now _that’s_ charisma!). You see, NTFS has a “feature” that I found about as charming as a hornet-and-crushed-glass enema. It’s not something people ordinarily worry about, and it’s not the sort of thing that comes up all that often, but here it is: **If you write “too many” files to the C:\ directory of your WinXP machine when the hard drive is nearly full, the Master File Table can become fragmented and eventually corrupted, preventing your machine from booting.** Happily, your machine will continue to run _just fine_ for as long as you leave it running after this error. The next time you reboot your machine, however, prepare to find a steaming slurry of goat diarrhea in your burrito. Surprise! A few critical files are totally hosed! ```auto NTLDR is missing press CTRL+ALT+DEL to restart ``` Every article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base recommends a complex process involving the ritual sacrifice of one’s firstborn, the cursed WinXP Install CD, a herd of Gadarene swine, a qualified exorcist, and the Recovery Console. After following a Minoan labyrinth of hyperlinks from article to article, I began to experience deja vu. It seems that no matter how deeply you dig into the pile of shit, each of these articles advises the same three processes: 1. replacement or repair of NTLDR and [NTDETECT.COM](http://NTDETECT.COM) 2. FDISK /MBR 3. a _complete repair install_ of WinXP These all make perfect sense! And yet, having gone through these processes, I was still taunted with the infernal black screen with pale gray text: ```auto NTLDR is missing press CTRL+ALT+DEL to restart ``` I sat through a Web Chat with {John\_D} from Microsoft, who very patiently walked me through the exact same sequence of infuriating and painful steps, each one exacerbated by the MSIE-only chat interface that was only marginally less painful than being gnawed to death by toothless alligators with halitosis. At least they didn’t charge me $35.00 for the privilege of watching them flail about like a quadruple amputee trying to waterski. I have been subjected to a month of government-sponsored “training” at the height of summer in San Antonio Texas, and yet I began to recall with fond smiles picking red ants out of my socks and swatting at black flies with radar cross sections larger than my own, when I tried to figure out what was wrong. In desperation, I tried CHKDSK. Trusty old CHKDSK, that never actually fixes anything, or bitches at you, or screws up your startup process. I tried it. On my next boot, I was _able to access the BOOT.INI menu!_ Woohoo! Jubilation! And now I discover that all of the “helpful” procedures I had run (you know, the perfectly reasonable ones?) had made life very ugly for me: Windows thought I had done a brand-new install! I managed to force WinXP to use a known-good restore point – a procedure which required burning five tallow candles made from the fat of quintuplets, arranged in a pentagram, while I chanted Redmond’s ZIP Code (98052, if you were wondering) backwards and swung a censer of burning RAID driver floppies – but I digress. I also had to do another complete repair install, and “activate” my copy of WinXP by telephone, which required barking numbers into a phone while a creepy AI somewhere outside Seattle, reminiscent of HAL or possibly Mother, burbled them back to me with all the cheery pep of an audible self-destruct timer. Trying to artificially inseminate an angry orca would be more enjoyable, and wouldn’t take half as long. You can exhale here – this is the part where I get really wound up. So I went to go look for what I could do to prevent my MFT from getting fragmented in the future, and it turns out that Microsoft’s built-in defragmenter DEFRAG is better suited to shaving leprous chihuahuas than actually defragging your hard drive under NTFS. According to the MS Knowledge Base, “you cannot defragment the MFT once it becomes fragmented using the Disk Defragmenter.” There is, however a setting you can change in WinXP that makes your MFT much less likely to spew bits all over your hard drive like tubgirl after a large bowl of chili, but it would be too fucking simple for MS to set that option to the safest setting when you install their badger-felching piece of detritus. I’m considering sending the author of DEFRAG an industrial pallet of Kleenex-brand personal tissue, so he can wipe the ropes of thick green pus out from between the lines of brain-damaged code. I hope he mistakes it for a delicacy and suffers a horribly embarrassing personal biological misfunction! Come on, you dung-witted excuse for a coder: DEFRAG doesn’t defrag all of the files that can become fragmented? What will I discover next: AUTOEXEC doesn’t automatically execute? Resolved: **NTFS** is only slightly more flexible than the reproductive organs of a bonobo doped up on the LD-50 of Cialis and turned loose at Hugh Hefner’s mansion. Resolved: **The Microsoft Knowledge Base** is about as useful as a Tengwar-to-Klingon dictionary or a 259-step elevator emergency procedure checklist that suggests “try to exit elevator through the main door” as step seven. Resolved: **The coder who quit early the day he was supposed to be writing DEFRAG** deserves a job in first-level phone tech support for Furbies, Aibos, and other animatronic pets, where he will spend all day deciphering grandmotherly baby-talk and the confused wailing of angry and perplexed customers stymied by poor coding. He also deserves to be raped by the aforementioned bonobo and dropped down the aforementioned elevator shaft. _Aside in praise of Diskeeper: **Diskeeper** is a fifty-dollar utility that will do all of the things Microsoft’s DEFRAG should have done in the first place. It will defrag your MFT, it will run at boot time with CHKDSK, and it will detect actual fragmented files, moving them around until they’re all contiguous. If Bill Gates would just buy them out and include their utility with Windows, this entire fiasco wouldn’t ever have to happen. I purchased Diskeeper and am much happier._ Resolved: **Bill Gates** is a rich asshat who grew up scrawny, and is blissfully ignorant of the momentum a dinosaur gains when it moves in the wrong direction. He deserves to be tea-bagged by the first male brontosaurus that Science manages to clone from amber-trapped DNA, and tossed down the aforementioned elevator shaft with the bonobo, the dictionary, the coder, &c. _fin_ ---
**Author:** ![Hauky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/0ea827/32.png) [@Hauky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hauky)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/2 "2004-07-08T19:27:09Z")
I always avoid putting files into the root directories out of habit… I think FAT16 had a limit on the number of files that could be in there or something, and now it’s ingrained into my head. Also, MS farms out defrag programming to third parties. Symantec did the Win9x version, not sure who did the 2K/XP one. And yeah, repair install sucks goats re: deleting all your settings. Otherwise, your words are very pretty. ;j ---
**Author:** ![mischievous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mischievous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mischievous)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/3 "2004-07-08T20:15:25Z")
This is purely to thank you, **Jurph** , for a long bout of helpless giggling. I particularly liked: > [@](#): > > The Microsoft Knowledge Base is about as useful as a Tengwar-to-Klingon dictionary . ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/4 "2004-07-08T20:31:26Z")
"If you must catch only one rant this summer, make it **Jurph’s** “A side splitting jaunt” ``` - World Eater ``` ---
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/5 "2004-07-08T20:59:07Z")
Well, there’s a mess for you. It turns out that the same company that wrote the NTFS Defrag for Windows 2000 (which presumably got carried over into WinXP) is the same company that makes Diskkeeper. Cites: > **[Windows 2000 droht ein Bann](https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Windows-2000-droht-ein-Bann-17220.html)** > > Eine integrierte Komponente von Windows 2000 ist Sektenbeauftragten der großen Kirchen nicht geheuer; sie stammt von einer Scientology-Firma. > **[Windows 2000 to be banned in Germany? - Slashdot](https://slashdot.org/story/99/12/03/0736217/windows-2000-to-be-banned-in-germany)** > > tjansen writes "The German Site Heise reports in this article that Windows 2000 may be banned in Germany. The reason is the included deframentation software Diskeeper that is written by the Scientology-owned company Executive Software. Many state... [http://www.execsoft.com/coverpage.asp](http://www.execsoft.com/coverpage.asp) To top things off, execsoft is (or al least was) run by a scientologist. Looks sort of like execsoft fucked MS over by giving MS a poorer product, and then selling the better one themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/6 "2004-07-08T21:02:20Z")
And one more cite: [http://club.cdfreaks.com/lite/t-91710.html](http://club.cdfreaks.com/lite/t-91710.html) Take a look at the first post - it is a copy of the Defrag About window. Execsoft made defrag for XP as well, or else MS just carried it over. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/7 "2004-07-08T21:52:22Z")
Well that takes some of the moxie out of my little screed up there. Does anyone want to bet that MS had a list of product requirements for Win2000 that got sacrificed for expediency when the release date crept up on them? I can easily imagine a coding team deciding to “stay busy” for another six months after the end of the project to release a product for which they’d already been paid once, and which stood to make them even more money. It’s absolutely worth the $50, and it will prevent you from experiencing the agony I went through above. Plus it widens one of your system’s bottlenecks just a wee bit, which is always nice. Seriously, **Diskeeper** is the shit. I just got my 80GB RAID down to 0.00% fragmentation. _All of my files are contiguous!_ Now I’m going to go play Diablo II to bleed off some steam (and to watch my hard drive go, go, go!). Y’all enjoy the ranting, hear? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/8 "2004-07-08T21:59:52Z")
Bah. It’s amazing how badly Microsoft fucks up a filesystem when the ext2fs has been in active use in Linux for… eleven years now? (The earliest version of the e2fsprogs package I can find in Sourceforge dates back to 1993.) I realize that the DOS-ish and \*nix-style filesystem worlds tend to clash, but you can trivially imitate, say, FAT32 with ext2fs if you make everything owned by root and set all permissions to 0777. That is, trivial user-level imitation: You’d need to remove the ability to create named FIFOs and other extra-special files to accurately emulate the lossage imposed by FAT32. My point being, Microsoft wasn’t shy about ripping off CP/M when it made MS-DOS. The code to do the ext2fs is in every (older) Linux kernel. (Most 2.6-series kernels do ext3fs by default, I think.) Since this would be outright theft, they could ignore the GPL (and, presumably, sue Linux developers for copying their modified version of ext2fs once XP hit the market). How hard could it be for them to ruin a well-understood technology? They already did it to VMS. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Harmonix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonix)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/9 "2004-07-09T01:41:36Z")
Huh, so thats what happened to my friends computer. We fixed it in one step with a repair install. Looks like you did something wrong earlier. you’re dead on about how shitty disk defragmenter is. I could do a better job by hand if it let me. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/10 "2004-07-09T01:55:24Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > **If you write “too many” files to the C:\ directory of your WinXP machine when the hard drive is nearly full, the Master File Table can become fragmented and eventually corrupted, preventing your machine from booting.** Ouch! This is awful! Pardon me if I am a complete newbie (I am, I am), but naturally I am concerned when I hear that “too many” files on a “nearly full” hard drive will result in this . . . mishap. How full is “nearly full” and how many files are “too many” files? Or is that one of the wonderful, magical things about this whole process—you don’t really know when you’ve gone too far? I tend to keep my hard drives kind of full (a 1GB of free space or more on a 10 GB partition, for instance) and I _really, REALLY_ couldn’t handle the kind of headache you are describing. Could you just wipe the hard drive clean and start over if you had to? Reformat and switch back to FAT32? Pardon me, I know these are dumb questions, but I spend more time on my Mac anyway . . . (No smug Mac jokes from me. I’m just explaining that I’m more of a Mac girl who also uses Windows.) ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/11 "2004-07-09T03:26:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Seriously, Diskeeper is the shit. I just got my 80GB RAID down to 0.00% fragmentation. All of my files are contiguous! Now I’m going to go play Diablo II to bleed off some steam (and to watch my hard drive go, go, go!). Y’all enjoy the ranting, hear? From what I remember, Diskeeper did the 2K/XP version of the defragmenter, and my NT 4.0 server required a third party download of Diskeeper. Course it is late and I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/12 "2004-07-09T04:33:35Z")
Here’s a couple of suggestions for you: 1.) Download and burn a[Knoppix](http://www.knoppix.org/) CD. This will allow you to boot to Linux from your CD drive, at which point you can muck around on your harddrive and attempt to fix the problem or at least burn off copies of the files that you need to keep before doing the old reformat and reinstall business. 2.) Purchase some HD iumagine software and do periodic back ups of your system, so that should you ever have to suffer through something similar, you’ve got a fairly simple solution. There _is_ a version of Windows which is bootable from a CD out there, but I can’t find any links to it, or I’d be happy to post 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Rex\_Fenestrarum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rex_fenestrarum/32/7265_2.png) [@Rex\_Fenestrarum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rex_Fenestrarum)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/13 "2004-07-09T05:24:21Z")
Wow… you keep files in the root of C:??? Do you keep your hair dryer by the bathtub? Do you let your kids play with fireworks?? Do you run under the nearest tree when lightning starts??? I’m so freaking SICK of people that use computers yet have no idea of how the work… And it’s not as if it’s _just_ Microsoft’s fault. There are directories and partitions in Linux that will kill an install if you let them get too full as well. So the lesson is - don’t put crap in the root of C: and learn how to use your system before you start complaining about it. Also, yes I think it’s funny that you’re complaining about XP’s disk defragmenter while singing the praises of… the same product. It’s true that XP’s version is slightly crippled compared to the retail version of Diskkeeper, but it’s all basically the same under the hood. And I can name at least two defraggers out there that are better than Diskeeper. ---
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/14 "2004-07-09T06:19:06Z")
Hey, Rex. Ease up. It can be fairly easy to inadvertently do this kind of thing. Just consider an auto-extracting exe file that has a bad default (C:\ instead of C:\Temp.) A normal PC user would just click OK, and the damage is done. In fact, that is exactly what happened to Jurph in this case. See this other thread: > **[Repairing Master Boot Record in WinXP](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=265097)** > > So, recently, I unzipped an archive of files on my WinXP machine, and PKUnzip decided that I wanted them all in C:\\ (root). Unfortunately, if you write too many small files to your root directory under WinXP, it overwrites your master boot record. ... PKUnzip defaulted to C:\ Jurph didn’t notice in time and whamo. ---
**Author:** ![Rodimus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a698b9/32.png) [@Rodimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodimus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/15 "2004-07-09T06:36:22Z")
Hello there Dopers! I have been a long time lurker, but this thread convinced me to come “out of the closet” so to speak. I happen to be one of the wonderful people that sit on the other end of the phone line when people call MS XP Tech support with their system problems. I just wanted to correct a few misconceptions that I have noticed in this thread. \ First of all, there is a wonderful KB article that would have solved your problem without taking the drastic step of a repair install…here’s a link: [KB article 307545](http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;307545) And as for what seems to have caused the problem, here’s another link to an article that describes your problem almost exactly: [KB article 122221](http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;122221&Product=winxp) And as for CHKDSK, it works quite well, thank-you very much. For a complete description of what it does in XP, and the options it has built in, here’s another link: [KB article 314835](http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;314835&Product=winxp) And no, I do not defend the actions/inactions/opinions of a certain Mr. Gates, I just have to try to fix the problems that crop up with his OS. (and now I sit patiently waiting for the flames to begin…) :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Rex\_Fenestrarum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rex_fenestrarum/32/7265_2.png) [@Rex\_Fenestrarum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rex_Fenestrarum)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/16 "2004-07-09T07:33:33Z")
> [@Mort Furd](#): > > Hey, Rex. Ease up. > It can be fairly easy to inadvertently do this kind of thing. Just consider an auto-extracting exe file that has a bad default (C:\ instead of C:\Temp.) A normal PC user would just click OK, and the damage is done. > > In fact, that is exactly what happened to Jurph in this case. See this other thread: > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=265097](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=265097) > > PKUnzip defaulted to C:\ Jurph didn’t notice in time and whamo. That’s why I _never_ open self-extractors by clicking-on them. Everything I download goes to my “workspace” partition (currently 92.1GB free). I then right-click the file and choose WinRar \> Extract to… and unpack the file. Then I check out the files and read any READMEs enclosed before running the setup or app or whatever. This works for about 99% of the SFX files out there; if it doesn’t I don’t install it unless I’m in absolute, dire need of the app. Sorry if I was snippy in this or the previous post. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-many-files-ntfs-spews-data-like-tubgirl/254128/17 "2004-07-09T12:40:20Z")
> [@Rodimus](#): > > Hello there Dopers! > > First of all, there is a wonderful KB article that would have solved your problem without taking the drastic step of a repair install…here’s a link: > > [KB article 307545](http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;307545) I am familiar with replacing the Big Five to force a system restore – it’s one of my favorite methods for getting things “just like they used to be”. I didn’t know that WinXP kept copies anywhere other than the System Volume Information folder, which (as you must know) is super-hidden and inaccessible from the Recovery Console. Your advice is dead-on! If only my tech had known that… > [@](#): > > And as for what seems to have caused the problem, here’s another link to an article that describes your problem almost exactly: > > [KB article 122221](http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;122221&Product=winxp) No, that’s actually nothing like what happened at all – but I’ll forgive you on account of my using baroque wording to describe the issue. The problem was too many files in my root directory (aside to **Rex Fenestraum** - yeah, I was being careless. I deserved about half of your bile above) which was not fixable via **FDISK /MBR** or the **FIXBOOT** command. Read the earlier part of my post where I list the three solutions that almost every article wanted me to try. Yours was #2 (no poop jokes, please). I tried 'em! Boy, howdy, did I try 'em. > [@](#): > > And as for CHKDSK, it works quite well, thank-you very much. For a complete description of what it does in XP, and the options it has built in, here’s another link: > > [KB article 314835](http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;314835&Product=winxp) Oh, I totally dig CHKDSK! I was not at all being sarcastic. I remember CHKDSK from way back in the day, is all, and I always ran it as “preventive” maintenance. It just never found any problems, because I generally run my computer as a pretty tight ship. No ropes loose on deck, no hair dryers by the bathtub… :dubious: I’m not sure if it came through in my post, but since I’d already done a repair install by the time I ran CHKDSK, I was able to use the “spankin’ new” install to move the Big Five through the GUI, rather than at the command line. By the way, I’ve been recommending that specific technique for [months now](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4835974&postcount=9), ever since the last time I had to fix a machine that was not happy with me. I made sure to send a note back to the Microsoft guy who helped me and tell him what ended up working so he can correct his technique (and maybe put an addendum in the KB articles he was using, since none of them recommended CHKDSK). I was very happy with my customer service, but I see now that the level of knowledge varies between techs, and finding the right KB article is still something of a black art. P.S. I typed this from my now-functioning machine. Woot! P.P.S. FUCK!