# Too much protein?!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-much-protein/608352
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [January 4, 2012, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-much-protein/608352 "2012-01-04T06:32:06Z")
**Posts on this page:** 7
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-much-protein/608352/21 "2012-01-09T16:49:29Z")
> [@Renee](#):
>
> Why 800 calories?
1 lb. of lean animal protein typically has around 800 Calories.
---
### Author:  [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-much-protein/608352/22 "2012-01-09T17:05:59Z")
Correction. Lyle McDonald states that 1 lb. of muscle contains 600 Calories while 1 lb. of fat contains 3,500 Calories:
[http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-energy-balance-equation.html](http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-energy-balance-equation.html)
---
### Author:  [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-much-protein/608352/23 "2012-01-09T17:26:31Z")
Using Lyle McDonald’s figures, it would appear that of the 53,400 surplus Calories consumed only 29,400 Calories (55%) were metabolized into muscle and fat.
---
### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-much-protein/608352/24 "2012-01-09T22:12:20Z")
> [@Renee](#):
>
> I don’t think any pro-fat people will say that you can eat a diet high in both carbs and fat and not gain weight. The theory behind low-carb diets is …
The subjects in this study were at no time on a high carbohydrate diet. The [USDA’s recommended range](http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/dga2005/document/html/chapter7.htm) is 45 to 65%. They were at first at 60% normocaloric and then during overfeeding carbs dropped to what can officially be called a “low carb” condition of 42%. No, that is not “the low carb diet” low carb, but it was certainly not a high carb condition.
Again, I agree that nothing about this study informs about any advantage or disadvantage of “low carb”; such was not tested. The theory of low carb is immaterial to the point: at normal carb levels a diet high in fat at the expense of protein resulted in an adverse body composition outcome relative to normal and low fat conditions; varying the fat level _mattered_.
> [@Surreal](#):
>
> Using Lyle McDonald’s figures, it would appear that of the 53,400 surplus Calories consumed only 29,400 Calories (55%) were metabolized into muscle and fat.
The authors’ pertinent comments:
> [@](#):
>
> We can account for all excess energy consumed through energy stored in fat and in protein or expended in higher total energy. With the low protein diet, more than 90% of the extra energy was stored as fat. Because there was no change in lean body mass, the 6.6% increase in total energy expenditure reflects the energy cost of storing fat and is close to the estimate of 4% to 8% for fat storage derived by Flatt.31 With the normal and high protein diets, only about 50% of the excess energy was stored as fat with most of the rest consumed (thermogenesis). The high total energy expenditure probably reflects the higher cost of protein turnover and storage.
>
> Resting energy expenditure responded differently to low vs high protein intake. Neither resting energy expenditure, nor lean body mass increased in the low protein group. In contrast, the accretion of lean body mass in the normal and high protein groups was the principal contributor to the increase in resting energy expenditure. …
BTW, I wish more of those who posted on this board appreciated the dynamic complexities to the calories in calories out equation that are reviewed in that link of yours. A nicely done explanation, and very pertinent to the authors’ quoted comments.
---
### Author:  [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-much-protein/608352/25 "2012-01-10T02:25:16Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> **Sleel** , I was indeed careful to not state that this study falsifies the “low carb” diet plan or inform at all about the benefit or harm of low carb per se, but that it falsifies one premise held by quite a few of the low carb/Atkins acolytes - that high fat has no adverse consequences even in an overfeeding condition and may even be beneficial. Indeed the study authors designed the study to look at the effects of protein, but by necessity when carbs are held constant low protein equals high fat and high protein equals low fat. Under the condition of constant and putatively “normal” carbohydrate intake the only overfeeding condition that led to fat gain without any lean body mass gain was the high fat/low protein condition. If you want to claim that such a finding does not say “anything at all about the benefit or harm of high fat intake” … well … I honestly don’t know how to respond, anymore than I would know how to answer someone who claims that 2 plus 2 doesn’t equal 4.
I’m not claiming that 2 plus 2 equals anything other than 4. You’re the one attempting to decouple fat intake from a low-carbohydrate state and claim that it invalidates an argument that advocates of a low-carbohydrate approach to eating hold. Either you’re overstating something or the people you are refuting are, but either way someone is very mistaken.
You can’t separate the carbohydrate intake from the fat intake independently. Saying anything about low-carb or Atkins _presupposes_ a ketogenic or cyclic ketogenic diet. Sixty percent of your calories coming from carbohydrate means that you’re _never_ ketogenic, you’re using an entirely different metabolic pathway, and the effects of fat on your system are dramatically different.
Like I said, this study says absolutely nothing to validate or invalidate any argument that someone who actually understood even the basics of a low-carbohydrate diet might propose. I’m sure there are some people who may latch on to the “fat isn’t necessarily bad” idea and overgeneralize it, but those people would have been misunderstanding the whole thing right from the beginning. The valid claim would be that _given a low-carbohydrate intake and sustained or periodic ketogenic state_ even overfeeding fat has minimal effects on health and body composition.
What you’re claiming for this study is like refuting the statement, “A little bit of oil in your gas won’t cause any problems for engine performance,” by dumping 10 times more oil than the level that person said would be okay, pointing to the resulting cloud of smoke coming out of the tailpipe of the car and saying, “Ha, you’re wrong. It does cause problems. Just look at the smoke!”
---
### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-much-protein/608352/26 "2012-01-12T02:53:53Z")
**Sleel** , again, acknowledged that this study says nothing about low carb, good or bad. I think however that you underestimate the how many people go around saying things like “fat just gets excreted” or discuss their diet plans with no concern for how much protein they take in so long as carbs are low, the more fat the better. Chicken wings fried in lard? Yum! Top it off with pork fat, cream, and butter. Better yet! (Yes a real poster on this board. **Renee** remembers I am sure!)
Meanwhile I have the actual hard copy of the article now. I must correct a stement I made earlier in post #11:
> [@](#):
>
> Typical Americans may be lower in protein than is recommended by the US Department of Agriculture Food Guide, but the vast majority still are well above that “low protein” percent range.
Actually, no. The low protein group was at a low percent but they still ate about 46 grams of protein a day (low percent of a high amount). The [USDA recommendation](http://www.iom.edu/Activities/Nutrition/SummaryDRIs/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/Nutrition/DRIs/5_Summary%20Table%20Tables%201-4.pdf) is just about 0.7 gm/kg/d. The average subject weighed about 70 kg. By that guidance 49 grams of protein/d would be advised. Pretty much the number the low protein group is in the “normal” ballpark, not that normal is a good thing in this case.
On average the high protein group was eating 228 gm of protein/d, or about 3 gm/kg/d, and the “normal” group was eating 140 gm, about 2 gm/kg/d.
Even 2 gm/kg/d of protein is a high protein diet, aimed for mostly by those doing serious resistance training. 3? That is absurd.
In any case another implication of this diet is the adverse effect of yoyo dieting. Eat that 0.7 gm/kg/d (40 something grams each day) and you will mostly gain fat. Diet without adequate protein, preferably also with resistance training, and maybe a quarter of what you lose is lean body weight. \*If \*you get back down to the same BMI you are now still a higher percent body fat. Rinse repeat. Each cycle you lose lean body mass and develop a greater percent of body fat.
Not good.
---
### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-much-protein/608352/27 "2012-01-12T13:24:15Z")
To put this into meaningful food context - to eat 140 grams of protein a day, that “normal” protein level of the study, you need to eat a 1 3/4 pound [rib eye](http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3271/2) (trimmed of all visible fat) a day. That alone would be over 2100 kCals.
Want to do that on a hypocaloric, low fat diet? Well go with [dry heat cooked wild salmon](http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4231/2) - 1 1/4 pound of it. Yes, now you’ve gotten your protein in for under 1000 kCal, but dang, that is still a lot of fish.
Non fat Greek yogurt is another low cal, low fat food, but you are talking about six cups (23 grams of protein each cup) to get to 140 gm of protein (yes, we are now under 800 kCal to do it).
Vegan? 3 1/2 blocks of firm [tofu](http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/legumes-and-legume-products/10336/2) (over 1300 kCal). 7 3/4 cups of [lentils](http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/legumes-and-legume-products/4338/2) (nearly 1800 kCal). Nearly 6 cups of [mixed nuts](http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3125/2) (over 4700 kCal!).
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/too-much-protein/608352.md?page=1)