# Toothpaste - fluoride, whitening **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [July 1, 2005, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674 "2005-07-01T13:09:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/41 "2005-07-05T02:29:26Z")
> [@Pure\_Doxyk](#): > > Er…no, that one’s NOT shot down. In fact, you’ve provided evidence that triclosan HAS been proven to be dangerous. The researcher’s comment to the effect that “Just because it’s dangerous in soap doesn’t mean it’s dangerous in toothpaste” is hardly evidence to the contrary–it just means there isn’t definitive proof yet. But there certainly is reason to suspect. > > Having heard equally vehement arguments for and against Flouride, I’m interested in more about this, and claims of this type–including sources! Also, I wish Cecil would have addressed non-toothpaste options, like salt, baking soda, weak peroxide solutions etc. > > -PD If you can’t follow along with the source that I gave, the primary researcher on the topic, then I’m helpless. Why is there reason to “suspect?” If you’re so concerned about sources, you ought to critically examine sources given by the anti-fluoride side. It’s difficult, but well worth the trip. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/42 "2005-07-05T05:24:57Z")
Can’t be too careful when it comes to the purity of essence of our precious bodily fluids. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/43 "2005-07-05T07:00:56Z")
Interesting topic. 1. There have been some assertions of a relationship between osteoporosis in the elderly and fluoride in drinking water. [Cite](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15107774&query_hl=2). [Cite:](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14631905&query_hl=2) “A higher prevalence of hip fractures in elderly osteoporotic women and osteosarcoma in teenagers has been reported in areas where excess fluoride exists in the drinking water.” 2. My fellow posters might keep a central principle of toxicology in mind: “ **The dose makes the poison.** ” That is, though drinking highly fluoridated water might not be such a hot idea for the elderly, that does NOT imply that they should opt for a nonfluoridated toothpaste. Many things beneficial in moderation are harmful in excess. > [@samclem](#): > > So, all you have to do is name the countries that have banned flouride, and give a cite. [This page](http://www.bfsweb.org/extentoffluorida.html) has a link to a .pdf file entitled, “The Extent of Water Fluoridation”. Check out page 22 of 26. Austria, China, Sweden and Finland don’t treat their water: there are other countries as well. Whether this constitutes a “ban” is a separate matter. (As it happens, some populations in these countries are served by naturally fluoridated water.) Huh. I thought this treatment was fairly universal. Not so: even in the US, only 2/3 of the population has water fluoridation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/44 "2005-07-05T12:42:57Z")
> [@BlueManGroup](#): > > I appreciate your honesty in admitting that you have yet to make a single argument, John. I don’t have to. The ADA already has. ---
**Author:** ![xbuckeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9e8a1a/32.png) [@xbuckeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xbuckeye)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/45 "2005-07-05T13:14:48Z")
> [@mike1dog](#): > > Oh no! You know if oxygen combines with uranium, you get uranium oxide. Maybe I should quit using oxygen. And _they_ use **water!!!11!!!** in **nuculer reactors!!!** so _I’m_ not evar drinking **water** again! > [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Not so: even in the US, only 2/3 of the population has water fluoridation Consider the proportion of the population of the US that isn’t using treated water and I don’t find this particularly notable. No city water = no fluoridation. They usually have fluoride programs in schools where this is the case to make sure that kids’ teeth get some fluoride since they are also highly likely to not have regular dental care either. We used to get a fluoride rinse once a week at school. I’m 26 and have had exactly one cavity in my life. I realize that isn’t definative proof, but I’m convinced that fluoride is doing more good than harm until someone shows me a source saying otherwise that is based on sound science, not emotion and assertion. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/46 "2005-07-05T14:02:17Z")
> [@BlueManGroup](#): > > People on dialysis use much more water than normal, thus getting a much higher dose of fluoride than the general population. Again, **Measure for Measure** ’s “The dose makes the poison” aphorism is useful. The water used in dialysis needs to have all manner of substances removed because, though they are harmless or even helpful in normal concentrations, the large amount of water used in the dialysis process could raise their concentrations to dangerous levels. Which, considering the process, should be obvious. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/47 "2005-07-05T14:10:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **xbuckeye** said: > No city water = no fluoridation. Unless, of course, flouride is naturally in your water source. I have a well, and there is flouride in my water because there is flouride in the ground water that’s pumped into my house from the well. It’s within what is considered to be a safe limit for consumption, so, there it is. I’m 27 and I have never had a cavity in my life. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/48 "2005-07-05T15:01:33Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I’m 27 and I have never had a cavity in my life. You’re only saying that because the Russian Nazis told you to. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/49 "2005-07-05T16:32:23Z")
Does anyone else get the impression that the anti-fluoridation posts in this thread are being made by one nut with a drawer full of dirty footwear? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/50 "2005-07-05T16:59:01Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re only saying that because the Russian Nazis told you to. Damn those CommieNazis!! someone call McBain! ---
**Author:** ![xbuckeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9e8a1a/32.png) [@xbuckeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xbuckeye)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/51 "2005-07-05T18:41:11Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I’m 27 and I have never had a cavity in my life. I bow down to your superior ground water source and your enviable dental health record. And my mama taught me to respect my elders 😃 Sooo…has anyone heard from the anti fluoride brigade recently? Are they perhaps getting their teeth drilled on? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/52 "2005-07-05T22:20:53Z")
> [@BlueManGroup](#): > > It is most interesting to watch people, without any facts, make derisive comments. I feel sorry for them but I care more about the 65% of Americans being systematically and continuously poisoned by rat poison. Actually, the most common rat poison is made from warfarin. C19 H15 NaO4 No flourine in there at all. A lot of carbon and hydrogen, though. ---
**Author:** ![xbuckeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9e8a1a/32.png) [@xbuckeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xbuckeye)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/53 "2005-07-05T23:57:28Z")
Great **kunilou** now I have to avoid carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, and oxygen in my toothpaste. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/54 "2005-07-06T00:22:56Z")
> [@Ralf The Dog](#): > > The increase in tooth decay comes from an increase in refined sugar in our diet. I’m not suggesting that sugar is bad for our teeth, but is there actually an increase in tooth decay? All four of my grandparents had to have all of their teeth removed and replaced with dentures when they were in their 30s. My grandmother tells me that this was not uncommon in those days (in England). It doesn’t seem to be very common these days so that would suggest that peoples dental health has improved a great deal since the 1950s. ---
**Author:** ![JimOfAllTrades](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@JimOfAllTrades](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimOfAllTrades)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/55 "2005-07-06T01:05:43Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Actually, the most common rat poison is made from warfarin. > C19 H15 NaO4 > > No flourine in there at all. A lot of carbon and hydrogen, though. And isn’t warfarin a fairly commonly prescribed blood thinner? (common for blood thinners, that is). Oh my god, they’re poisoning us at every turn! ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/56 "2005-07-06T02:28:22Z")
> [@RJKUgly](#): > > And isn’t warfarin a fairly commonly prescribed blood thinner? (common for blood thinners, that is). In fact it is, under the trade name Coumadin. > **[Warfarin: MedlinePlus Drug Information](https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a682277.html)** > > Warfarin: learn about side effects, dosage, special precautions, and more on MedlinePlus > [@](#): > > Oh my god, they’re poisoning us at every turn! Bah. You should have been around when every shoe store had a badly-shielded x-ray machine to ensure proper fit. Kids today… are lucky to even exist, in retrospect. ---
**Author:** ![clamshell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@clamshell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clamshell)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/57 "2005-07-06T20:05:59Z")
Will someone please, PLEASE (I beg of you) address the following assertion by Chooch, made earlier in this thread: **"The flouride used in our water and toothpaste is is actually waste by product from factories, who found a great way to dispose of their refuse and get paid at the same time."** I have heard this same statement from numerous friends over the years—people who are not normally given to bizarre allegations. Searching for info to refute this claim is an excercise in migraine-inducing frustration on the internet; a needle in an anti-fluoride haystack. Can anyone tackle this claim with hard evidence? I’ll be your best friend. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/58 "2005-07-06T21:39:38Z")
> [@clamshell](#): > > Will someone please, PLEASE (I beg of you) address the following assertion by Chooch, made earlier in this thread: > > **"The flouride used in our water and toothpaste is is actually waste by product from factories, who found a great way to dispose of their refuse and get paid at the same time."** > > I have heard this same statement from numerous friends over the years—people who are not normally given to bizarre allegations. > > Searching for info to refute this claim is an excercise in migraine-inducing frustration on the internet; a needle in an anti-fluoride haystack. > > Can anyone tackle this claim with hard evidence? I’ll be your best friend. 🙂 According to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_controversy), some of the fluoride in our water is a byproduct of the phosphate fertilizer industry and is done to comply with clean air standards. Those who oppose fluoridation seem to mostly claim that fluoride is a byproduct of aluminum production. This doesn’t sound like any aluminum producers have been selling off their byproduct lately: > [@](#): > > [Electrochemistry Encyclopedia](http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-a01-al-prod.htm) > Rare over 100 years ago, aluminum, made by an electrolytic process, is now ubiquitous in transportation, packaging, building construction and electrical transmission. > > Metallic aluminum was first made by H. C. Oersted in Copenhagen in 1825. He gently heated potassium amalgam (an alloy of potassium and mercury) with aluminum chloride and distilled the mercury from the resultant aluminum amalgam. A small lump of metal having the luster of tin remained behind. In 1845 Fredrick Wohler, at the University of Gottingen, made pinhead size particles of aluminum by reduction of aluminum chloride with potassium. He was not able to fuse them together but he measured their specific gravity and obtained values of 2.50 and 2.67 (g/cm3), quite accurate compared to the current value of 2.702. The low specific gravity, the ductility and the stability in air presaged the future utility of the metal, if it could be made cheaply. H. Sainte-Claire Deville announced an improvement in the process in 1854, that is reduction of aluminum chloride by sodium. The resulting sodium chloride-aluminum chloride melt acted as a flux and allowed the aluminum pin heads to fuse into marble-size globules. Subsequently a plant was built near Paris. Sodium was made by carbothermal reduction. Many others entered the field, in England, Germany, and the United States and improvements were made in the process, but the metal was still expensive. In 1884 a 100-ounce (~2.8-kg) pyramid was cast to cap the Washington Monument, one of the largest pieces ever made at the time. > > The real breakthrough came in 1886 when Charles Martin Hall in Ohio and Paul L. T . Heroult of Paris independently applied for patents for the electrolytic process in molten salt for manufacturing aluminum. Both electrolyzed alumina (aluminum oxide) dissolved in molten Greenland cryolite (sodium-aluminum fluoride) at about 1000oC (1832oF). The electric dynamo, which came into use about 15 years earlier, allowed this new electrolytic industry to grow and prosper. > > The industry has largely solved the fluoride emission problem with dry scrubbing but economical disposal of used carbon cell linings remains a problem. The linings contain highly alkaline bath, aluminum carbide, cyanides, and other materials. A small part is ground and added to cement kilns as a source of fluoride, but most now still end in landfills. Others claim that it’s a byproduct of the manufacturing of weapons-grade plutonium and uranium. This is misleading–[it’s a byproduct, sure, but in order to facilitate the production it had to be _added_](http://www.lanl.gov/orgs/nmt/nmtdo/AQarchive/05spring/heart.html). It’s not like the flouride came out of nowhere. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/59 "2005-07-06T23:09:24Z")
> [@RJKUgly](#): > > And isn’t warfarin a fairly commonly prescribed blood thinner? (common for blood thinners, that is). > > Oh my god, they’re poisoning us at every turn! Another common rat poison is Thallium. What does **KC** make every day to inject into middle aged folks? Radioactive Thallium! ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674/60 "2005-07-06T23:40:25Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Another common rat poison is Thallium. What does **KC** make every day to inject into middle aged folks? > > Radioactive Thallium! Bastard! Poisoner! Commie! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toothpaste-fluoride-whitening/310674.md?page=4)