# Top Five Brutally Bad Plotholes in Quality Movies: Let's Compile a List **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 8, 2008, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548 "2008-05-08T11:29:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/261 "2008-05-14T21:11:49Z")
[QUOTE=Zebra] The other Nazi sub plot hole Getting the crate into the sub, while on the high seas, would have been darn near impossible. Heck, it may be impossible to get anything that big into a WWII sub after it was built. [/QUOTE] No harder than trying to get the crated Ark onto the oh-so-streamlined Flying Wing! ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/262 "2008-05-15T03:48:21Z")
[QUOTE=HubZilla] So, even without Indy, the outcome would’ve been the same. [/QUOTE] Not exactly … [QUOTE=pepperlandgirl] … if Indy hadn’t been involved, the Ark would be sitting quietly on an abandoned island where it’d probably be lost once again. [/QUOTE] Probably. _Probably_? Not good enough! Indy’s involvement was _crucial_ in guaranteeing the Ark ended up in the hands of U.S. government bureaucrats, who could safely store it in that warehouse. Where it really _would_ be lost forever. (Really. I pity the 38th century archeologist who tries to track it down in _that_ mess.) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/263 "2008-05-15T03:55:46Z")
[QUOTE=Jonathan Chance] Believe it or not the original script, as portrayed in the Marvel Comics adaptation, has the sub diving _while putting up its periscope_. Indy then uses the whip (I should get one of those…they appear to be useful beyond expectations) to lash himself to the top of the periscope and presumably spends the time fantasizing about Marion’s hooters or something to while away the time. [/QUOTE] Also notice that Indy does not have his whip after waterskiing behind the sub. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/264 "2008-05-15T15:19:04Z")
[QUOTE=HubZilla] He’s more useless than that. Let’s say Indy wasn’t around to lead the Nazis to the Ark. 1. Nazis get the medallion from Marion [/QUOTE] Would they? Don’t we see Toht on the clipper, following Jones to Nepal? The impression I had was that the Nazis knew Abner Ravenwood had the medallion but were at a (literal) dead end, not knowing where the medallion ended up after Abner died. I figure the Nazis deliberately used an easily-decodabe message with Ravenwood’s name and details of the Ark story in hopes American Army Intelligence would consult Jones, a known former associate of Abner. Jones was already under Nazi surveillance, in hopes he would lead them to the medallion. On analysis, it doesn’t really hold together all that well. Jones travels directly to Tibet (or at least as directly as 1936 technology will allow). Somewhere along the way, Toht must have sent off a bunch of telegrams arranging for a local goon squad. Oh, well… ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/265 "2008-05-15T15:53:02Z")
There was a Nazi spy on the plane, but it wasn’t Toht. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/266 "2008-05-15T16:02:05Z")
Die Hard With A Vengeance has a pretty big hole in it. Bad Guy plans to have Tough Cop running around all over town solving puzzles. This is planned as cover for a bigger operation. However, if not for the lucky chance that Zeus got involved, Tough Cop would have failed puzzle number one. End of movie, end of bad guy’s plan. I’m not sure if it counts as a quality movie. I kinda enjoyed it, anyway, despite the above flaw. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/267 "2008-05-15T16:45:19Z")
[QUOTE=JohnT] “Gotham” is a near 200-year old nickname for New York City, first called that by Washington Irving. Calling a fictional metropolis “Gotham” essentially states that this city is a fictional NYC. [/QUOTE] In dramatic terms, Metropolis is NYC during the day, and Gotham is NYC at night. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/268 "2008-05-15T17:27:31Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] _Ocean’s Twelve_ was based on the idea that the gang from the first movie was competing with this French thief, the Night Fox, to see who could steal a piece of art first. They set up a ridiculously elaborate plan and are infiltrating the museum when there’s a problem and half of the gang gets arrested. [spoiler]The Night Fox is able to steal the prize while they’re in jail. But then it’s revealed that Ocean’s gang had already stolen the prize days earlier while it was being transported to the museum and what the Night Fox stole was a replica. In which case, why were they going into the museum to steal something they already had?[/spoiler] [/QUOTE] LeMarc specifically tells them “You have to assume you are under surveillance at all times.” Rusty’s response is that they “Will put on a good show.” That’s what I thought it meant - they were putting on a great show ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/269 "2008-05-15T17:45:51Z")
[QUOTE=Chimera] In the original novel (aka, the old testament), the Israelites carried the ark before them to destroy their enemies. For all we know, the big secret of the priests could have been that they were all blind, or blind-folded. All they do is walk around screaming “Hey, look at me!” while carrying this box that melts anyone stupid enough to actually look at it. [/QUOTE] That reminds of an epiphany I had once while watching _Mom and Dad save the world_(Now there’s a phrase you don’t hear to often :)) There’s a big joke in the movie about a granade that says “Pick Me Up”. You throw it on the ground and wait for the enemy to pick it up at which time he dies. In reality the Ark is basically just a big granade that says “Open me”. And when you open it, you die. That realization takes some of the gravitas out of RotLA. ---
**Author:** ![diku](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@diku](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diku)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/270 "2008-05-15T18:10:25Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Die Hard With A Vengeance has a pretty big hole in it. Bad Guy plans to have Tough Cop running around all over town solving puzzles. This is planned as cover for a bigger operation. However, if not for the lucky chance that Zeus got involved, Tough Cop would have failed puzzle number one. End of movie, end of bad guy’s plan. I’m not sure if it counts as a quality movie. I kinda enjoyed it, anyway, despite the above flaw. [/QUOTE] Actually, while he had set up all the other stuff, he would’ve been fine if he’d died in Harlem. He says when he calls in after that something like “He wore the sign, he went to the place, but he survived, why?”. Then states Zeus has to get involved. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/271 "2008-05-15T18:25:55Z")
[QUOTE=garygnu] There was a Nazi spy on the plane, but it wasn’t Toht. [/QUOTE] Damn it you are right. I just watched it the other day with my daughter (who had never seen it) and I still assumed it was him. I just went back and looked. All you see is the guy’s eyes above the newspaper. It looks like it could be Toht. But if you go to the first seen with Toht in the bar it is obvious the the glasses are different. Toht has round glasses the guy on the plane does not. The guy on the plane seems to have more hair too but it is hard to tell with the fedora. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/272 "2008-05-15T18:41:08Z")
[QUOTE=wolfman] In reality the Ark is basically just a big granade that says “Open me”. And when you open it, you die. That realization takes some of the gravitas out of RotLA. [/QUOTE] That’s your take on it, not the official mythos of the film. Sure the whole “don’t look at it Marion” bit could lead you to think that but from the very little that is seen of the Ark’s power and effect we have no way of knowing. If Lucas (or anyone involved in writing the story) has said otherwise then by all means point me to a cite. ---
**Author:** ![iwakura43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de0a6/32.png) [@iwakura43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iwakura43)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/273 "2008-05-16T03:58:38Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] And it only took them twelve parsecs! [/QUOTE] \ parsecs are a unit of distance, not time \ ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/274 "2008-05-16T04:21:00Z")
[QUOTE=iwakura43] \ parsecs are a unit of distance, not time \ [/QUOTE] Uhhh…yeah. I’m guessing **Alessan** knew that. I think your nitpick is with someone richer and more famous than Alessan. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/275 "2008-05-16T05:08:19Z")
[QUOTE=diku] Actually, while he had set up all the other stuff, he would’ve been fine if he’d died in Harlem. He says when he calls in after that something like “He wore the sign, he went to the place, but he survived, why?”. Then states Zeus has to get involved. [/QUOTE] Right. Simon could predict what the NYPD would do. McClane, not so much. Nakatomi Plaza proved that much. The riddles were intended to accomplish one of two things: kill McClane, or at least keep him out of Simon’s hair. Consider if McClane had died in Harlem. The bomb still would have exploded on the train in order to blow a hole in the Federal Reserve, and Simon would have still tipped the NYPD off to the bomb threat on the elementary school. The NYPD would have still been tied up while Simon did his thing. McClane had a history of being a wrench in the gearworks, and besides, he did kill Hans. So it makes a certain amount of sense that Simon would want to target him specifically. “Life has its little bonuses.” It’s not the strongest of plot points, but it’s not necessarily a hole either. Zeus was the real wildcard; without him, Simon probably would have been able to kill McClane. Considering Die Hard With A Vengeance is a Frankenstein monster created from two separate scripts, they did a decent job of patching up the holes. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/276 "2008-05-16T19:13:56Z")
Ooh, got another one. It’s not really so much a plot hole as it is just something that has no need to be there, though I know why it was there. In Moulin Rouge, the manager of the theatre/whorehouse tells the new owner (i think that’s who is is…the David Spade wannabe) that Nicole Kidmann isn’t here for their date (because she’s “wasting away with consumption” or something), so being in a huff, he decides he is NOT going to buy the Moulin Rouge and it can go to Hell. So, in a spur-of-the-moment decision, the manager yells out that she is confessing, because she wants to be “virginly” for him, and then goes into the “Like a Virgin” number. I don’t understand why he couldn’t just have said “sorry, she’s sick.” He doesn’t have to say “she has consumption,” just that she has a slight cough, or whatever else people suffered from in those days that might only last a day or two. it just seemed like a really ham-fisted way of squeezing in the “Like a Virgin” number. There could have been a better way to do it, if they just tried harder. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/277 "2008-05-16T19:58:23Z")
[QUOTE=Illuminatiprimus] That’s your take on it, not the official mythos of the film. Sure the whole “don’t look at it Marion” bit could lead you to think that but from the very little that is seen of the Ark’s power and effect we have no way of knowing. If Lucas (or anyone involved in writing the story) has said otherwise then by all means point me to a cite. [/QUOTE] Well, earlier in the film, Indy and his College boss are discussing the Arc, referencing some of the books they have at hand. > [@IMDB.com](#): > > Indiana: Well, obviously, the Nazis are looking for the headpiece to Staff of Ra and they think Abner’s got it. > > Major Eaton: What exactly is the headpiece to the Staff of Ra? > > Indiana: Well, the staff is just a stick. I don’t know, about this big. Nobody really knows exactly how high. It’s capped with an elaborate headpiece in the shape of the sun with a chrystal in the center. And what you did was, you took the staff to a special room in Tannis, a map room with a miniature of the city laid out on the floor, and if you put the staff in a certain place, at a certain time of the day the sun shone through here and created beam which came down to the floor here, and gave you the exact location of the Well of the Souls. > > Colonel Musgrove: Where the Ark of the Covenant is located. > > Indiana: That’s exactly what the Nazis are looking for. > > Major Eaton: What does this Ark look like? > > Indiana: There’s a picture of it right here. [opens book] Here it is. > > Colonel Musgrove: Good God! > > Brody: Yes, that’s just what the Hebrews thought. > > Major Eaton: What is this? Coming out of here. > > Indiana: Lightening. Fire. Power of God or something. > > Major Eaton: I’m beginning to understand Hitler’s interest in this. > > Brody: Oh, yes. The Bible speaks of the Ark leveling mountains and laying waste to entire regions. An army which carries the Ark before it is invincible. I would venture to guess that if Lucas had to explain the Ark more, he would say that it was a tool of God. Remeber when the Ark was crated up, and the Nazi’s put their logo on the crate? The logo is seen to be scorched, presumadely by the Ark (at the will of God). It didn’t need to be open for this to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/278 "2008-05-16T20:09:08Z")
There may be something I’ve forgotten, but in The Wizard of Oz when the WWoTW has Dorothy locked in the tower and says she will be dead when the hourglass is empty. Why does Dorothy then believe that she will be ok if they get her out of the tower? And of course, why was she ok just by being let of that room? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/279 "2008-05-16T20:37:31Z")
[QUOTE=iwakura43] \ parsecs are a unit of distance, not time \ [/QUOTE] I’ve heard it explained that the Kessel Run requires you chart a roundabout route to avoid celestial bodies. Han is reckless enough to cut corners dangerously close, and so was able to win having flown the shortest distance. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548/280 "2008-05-16T20:42:49Z")
[QUOTE=sqweels] I’ve heard it explained that the Kessel Run requires you chart a roundabout route to avoid celestial bodies. Han is reckless enough to cut corners dangerously close, and so was able to win having flown the shortest distance. [/QUOTE] Maybe so, but usually, such an action would be touted using time. “I can do it quicker! Fly me! I can get you there sooner!” For example, an airline that flies from New York to Moscow over the North Pole, may save (_pulls number out of arse_) 5 hours, compared to a flight that goes east over all of Europe. In this case, the airline would say “We get you there 5 hours faster!”, not “We get you there using 3000 less miles!”. YMMV [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-five-brutally-bad-plotholes-in-quality-movies-lets-compile-a-list/448548.md?page=15)