# Top Religious Leader of Saudi Arabia bans Chess **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 22, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892 "2016-01-22T18:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/181 "2016-01-25T07:52:15Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Nope I’m not an Islamaphobe. “If it quacks like a duck.” ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/182 "2016-01-25T08:06:31Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > “If it quacks like a duck.” Ok lets examine the first and most central belief of Islam. “There is no god but allah and mohammed is his prophet”. Furthermore, he’s the seal of the prophets, there can never be another one. Now lets examine the life of mohammed to see what sort of example he sets? He conquered a bunch of cities killing thousands, killed prisoners who had surrendered to him, took thirteen wives for himself while limiting his followers to only four and lastly married a 7 year old and then consummated the marriage when the girl was 10 years old. > **[Aisha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha)** > > Aisha bint Abi Bakr\[a\] (c. 613/614 CE – July 678) was the Islamic prophet Muhammad's third and youngest wife. > Little is known about her childhood. A preponderance of classical sources converge on Aisha being 6 or 7 years old at the time of her marriage, and 9 at the consummation; her age has been a source of ideological friction. Aisha had an important role in early Islamic history, both during Muhammad's life and after his death. In Sunni tradition, Aisha is portrayed as scholarly, intelligen... This is the chosen messenger of god? You want us to follow his example? Nope and Nope. There are perfectly rational reasons an objective observer of religions might take particular issue with Islam compared to other world religions, just by looking at the life of the founder. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/183 "2016-01-25T09:47:35Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Ok lets examine the first and most central belief of Islam. “There is no god but allah and mohammed is his prophet”. Furthermore, he’s the seal of the prophets, there can never be another one. > > Now lets examine the life of mohammed to see what sort of example he sets? He conquered a bunch of cities killing thousands, killed prisoners who had surrendered to him, took thirteen wives for himself while limiting his followers to only four and lastly married a 7 year old and then consummated the marriage when the girl was 10 years old. > [Aisha - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha) > > This is the chosen messenger of god? You want us to follow his example? Nope and Nope. There are perfectly rational reasons an objective observer of religions might take particular issue with Islam compared to other world religions, just by looking at the life of the founder. You have some serious reading comprehension problems. Nowhere at all did I ever say that I wanted anyone to follow that example. So, to add to my earlier question to you: Where are you getting the idea that I do? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/184 "2016-01-25T09:53:10Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You have some serious reading comprehension problems. Nowhere at all did I ever say that I wanted anyone to follow that example. I am explaining my reasoning for my particular issues with Islam that I do not have with other religions, based on the life of its founder… Muhammed is supposed to be an example to mankind so its perfectly fair game to judge the religion by the life he lived. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/185 "2016-01-25T09:56:45Z")
And that has not a thing to do with your implication that I want people to follow that example. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/186 "2016-01-25T10:20:38Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > And that has not a thing to do with your implication that I want people to follow that example. That was a rhetorical device, I know you’re not a muslim. However to muslims, you are supposed to view Muhammeds life as an example to follow. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/187 "2016-01-25T10:35:58Z")
Rhetorical device? Yeah, right. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/188 "2016-01-25T10:49:24Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Rhetorical device? Yeah, right. If thats the best come back you can come up with then you got nothing. And to pre-empt the “it was a different time and our standards don’t apply” response: Somehow the founders of Christianity, Buddhism, Manichaeism, Zoroastrianism, Taoism etc managed to go through life without having it recorded in their holy books that they had sex with a child. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/189 "2016-01-25T11:11:46Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > If thats the best come back you can come up with then you got nothing. I’m mocking your use of the term “rhetorical device”. > [@](#): > > And to pre-empt the “it was a different time and our standards don’t apply” response: > Somehow the founders of Christianity, Buddhism, Manichaeism, Zoroastrianism, Taoism etc managed to go through life without having it recorded in their holy books that they had sex with a child. The holy book of the Jews and Christians have at least one of their founders offering his own daughters to be raped. Care to comment on that? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/190 "2016-01-25T11:17:02Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’m mocking your use of the term “rhetorical device”. > > The holy book of the Jews and Christians have at least one of their founders offering his own daughters to be raped. Care to comment on that? Old Testament, largely superseded and there is not one country in the world that uses the old testament as the basis for their legal system, not even Israel. Have a look at the map of countries that apply Shariah law in various forms: > **[Application of Sharia by country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_sharia_law_by_country)** > > Sharia means Islamic law based on Islamic concepts based from Quran and Hadith. Since the early Islamic states of the eighth and ninth centuries, Sharia always existed alongside other normative systems. > Historically, Sharia was interpreted by independent jurists (muftis), based on Islamic scriptural sources and various legal methodologies. In the modern era, statutes inspired by European codes replaced traditional laws in most parts of the Muslim world, with classical Sharia rules retained mai... Objectively if you study comparative religions and especially look at the life of the founder and the societies that countries run on those religious principles look like, its kind of easy to come to the conclusion that islam is a shitty religion. And yes I’d lump Mormonism and Scientology in that category as well. Religions started by cynical founders expressly to increase their own personal wealth and power. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/191 "2016-01-25T11:36:47Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Old Testament, largely superseded and there is not one country in the world that uses the old testament as the basis for their legal system, not even Israel. That wasn’t the point you made, now was it? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/192 "2016-01-25T11:42:55Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That wasn’t the point you made, now was it? I’m not interested in playing this game. In my opinion Islam is objectively worse than other major world religions on a number of factors and I stand by that. My reasons for believing that are expressed in posts above. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/193 "2016-01-25T11:48:28Z")
Did you get a good deal on the goalpost wheels? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/194 "2016-01-25T11:57:36Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Did you get a good deal on the goalpost wheels? Another lame comeback, you can do better than that. This is the pit. Try harder. Kimstu attacked me, so I’ve explained my reasons for having a problem with the belief structure of Islam in general, the life of its founder and societies structured on islamic laws. You can accuse me of being a bigot if you want, but I’m not ignorant, I’ve travelled in muslim majority countries for months at a time, read the Quran and read lots of commentary on Islam from various sources. My carefully considered opinion is: Islam is a shitty religion. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/195 "2016-01-25T13:09:01Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Those arguments are idiotic, sure, but to be intellectually honest, it is important to note a spectrum of which those arguments are one end: How much _do_ you have to know about something in order to criticize it? > > We’ve been hung up on the definition of “priest” in this thread, and that’s actually a fairly deep topic as regards the effective and dogmatic sources of authority in Islam. How much do you have to know about that topic to criticize someone who has a following and says idiotic things? Is it edgelord idiocy to condemn the followers of someone with traditional views on marriage and wife-beating? > > This shades into the “Courtiers’ Reply”: “Ah, but it is wrong of you to imply that the Emperor has no clothes unless and until you’re _au fait_ with every word written on the subject of every stitch His Royal Highness is ostensibly wearing!” > > (I trust you understood every word I used, BTW.) I did, thank you.🙂 And I don’t disagree at all. I have little patience for cultural relativist arguments, and have certainly condemned practices without an an anthropologist’s understanding of their cultural nuances and justifications. One can absolutely condemn the advocates of wife-beating, flogging, amputation, and stoning, and laugh at a fatwa on chess, without a deep understanding of different types of religious authority. But that is quite distinct from condemning Islam as a whole, or saying Islam itself needs to be fixed. And one need not be a theologian to understand “not like Pope, more like Westboro Baptist Church.” There is an adamant, insistent, and belligerent ignorance about Islam in the U.S. and on these boards. Of course there are atrocities committed in Islamic societies and justified in terms of Islamic principles. How could there not be? There is a great deal to condemn in most religions; they are, after all, human efforts at coming to terms with transcendent questions of meaning and purpose. Then again, there is much to condemn in secular political and social arrangements and conflicts. We condemn every beheading as an act of barbarism, as we should. But how many people in the U.S. pay any attention at all to the more than five million people, many of them children, most of them non-combatants, who died in the Second Congo War? Too bad no sky fairies were involved–maybe then more people would have paid attention. In our secular societies, we blame atrocities on a few bad apples or the blackness of the victims’ skin. Shit happens. Somewhat separately, and related to my mood rather than this particular thread, there is a proud and persistent ignorance about religion and religious faith on this board. Serious discussions of religion are constantly interrupted with sky fairies! Spiderman! Big daddy in the sky! La la la la, I can’t hear you! Religion obviously has a huge impact on the world, whether in the Middle East or U.S. politics. To claim that it’s just so silly to take religion seriously is no better than saying “I know nothing of economics! Who cares! Look at me, I’m so cute!” Pit threads sometimes develop into an odd mix of serious discussion and insult slinging. Unfortunately, I engaged in far too much of the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/196 "2016-01-25T13:24:39Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > They are not english words. They are loan words and again this is all a distraction to the issue which is an islamic religious leader saying something stupid. It doesn’t matter what title you give them, what matters is what they say. Judge them on that. Priest is a loan word too, ass muncher ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/197 "2016-01-25T13:40:34Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > Priest is a loan word too, ass muncher You’re obviously a bit slow since we have moved on from this point about 20 posts ago. Do try to keep up won’t you? But yes I will happily munch on an ass as long as its clean and attached to a female. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/198 "2016-01-25T13:51:29Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > There is an adamant, insistent, and belligerent ignorance about Islam in the U.S. and on these boards. Maybe, but not from myself. My critiques of Islam are based on an informed opinion. If you disagree then address my specific points about the life of the founder of islam and what sort of example he sets. I’m not alone in my opinion, check out this forum for a lot of people raised as muslims who will express the same opinion as me, anonymously because otherwise they would be in danger of their lives: [https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim) I was never a muslim but I believe I know enough about the religion to express an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/199 "2016-01-25T14:03:20Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Islam has religious leaders who perform various functions. It doesn’t matter that there is no ordination ritual Of course it matters. The fact that there is no central ritual-conducting certifying authority means that anyone who has the thought flitter through his head can do the Rand Paul celf-certification thing, which either matters or not depending on how many people actually listen to him. The Discordians do it one better by letting you self-certify as a Pope. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/200 "2016-01-25T14:09:17Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Of course it matters. The fact that there is no central ritual-conducting certifying authority means that anyone who has the thought flitter through his head can do the Rand Paul celf-certification thing, which either matters or not depending on how many people actually listen to him. The Discordians do it one better by letting you self-certify as a Pope. Another slow one. This point has been discussed long ago. Islamic preachers have influence even if they don’t have any formal authority. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892.md?page=11)