# Top Religious Leader of Saudi Arabia bans Chess **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 22, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892 "2016-01-22T18:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/381 "2016-02-03T22:41:45Z")
If Scalia had no written law to follow, no need to follow precedent, his every remark would be more significant than it is now. Is Abdul-Aziz ibn Abdullah Al Shaykh a _qadi_? If he is not an active or former judge, could he theoretically just be appointed one by Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Salman bin Abdulaziz ? **andros** , I decided to make your day and notice you. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/382 "2016-02-03T22:51:10Z")
> [@Hooleehootoo](#): > > If Scalia had no written law to follow, no need to follow precedent, his every remark would be more significant than it is now. “More significant” is still not “has the force of law”. As you can tell by the fact that despite the Shaykh’s _fatwa_, there was a chess tournament _held right in the city of Mecca._ :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Is Abdul-Aziz ibn Abdullah Al Shaykh a _qadi_? If he is not an active or former judge, could he theoretically just be appointed one by Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Salman bin Abdulaziz ? Doesn’t matter, since he wasn’t acting as a _qadi_ at the time, but giving his opinion on a _television call-in show_. And therefore, despite your continued and perplexing insistence to the contrary, [“lacks legal standing under Saudi civil law”.](http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/01/21/even-the-saudi-grand-mufti-cant-stop-these-chess-players/) > [@](#): > > **andros** , I decided to make your day and notice you. Perhaps you should instead devote your time and attention to ACTUALLY LEARNING WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT SO YOU DON’T LOOK LIKE SUCH A FUCKING TOOL. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/383 "2016-02-03T23:24:46Z")
okay, okay you got me. To keep up my status as a bigoted, racist, xenophobic, troll, I am required to spend a certain amount of time each day reading such claptrap as [this](http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1302&context=ilr) and [this](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/saudi-arabias-war-on-witchcraft/278701/) and that is what I was doing before reading your link. The FP’s claim that the fatwa lacks legal standing is presented without elaboration and contradicts other sources. Say for example that our favorite Mufti, instead of finding [Pokeman](http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=81345&page=1) as something to beware, determined that it was witchcraft. Do you claim this would be insignificant to the [Witchcraft Police](http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Saudi-Arabias-Anti-Witchcraft-Unit-breaks-another-spell)? ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/384 "2016-02-03T23:54:08Z")
> [@Hooleehootoo](#): > > okay, okay you got me. To keep up my status as a bigoted, racist, xenophobic, troll, I am required to spend a certain amount of time each day reading such claptrap as [this](http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1302&context=ilr) and [this](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/saudi-arabias-war-on-witchcraft/278701/) and that is what I was doing before reading your link. Neither of which has anything to do with your dumb assertions. The first one actually highlights how you’re wrong, by describing the Saudi court system. A call-in TV show, even in Saudi Arabia, is NOT A COURT. > [@](#): > > The FP’s claim that the fatwa lacks legal standing is presented without elaboration and contradicts other sources “Your ass” is not a source. > [@](#): > > Say for example that our favorite Mufti, instead of finding [Pokeman](http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=81345&page=1) as something to beware, determined that it was witchcraft. Do you claim this would be insignificant to the [Witchcraft Police](http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Saudi-Arabias-Anti-Witchcraft-Unit-breaks-another-spell)? If Pokémon had a thousand-year tradition in the Muslim world, there were numerous Pokémon clubs in Saudi Arabia, and there was a Pokémon tournament held right in Mecca a few days after that _fatwa_ was issued, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/385 "2016-02-04T00:58:49Z")
> [@Hooleehootoo](#): > > …my status as a bigoted, racist, xenophobic, troll… > [@](#): > > Pokeman You missed “amusingly stupid.” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/386 "2016-02-04T03:21:27Z")
My goodness, these thing become amazingly out of hand so quickly! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/387 "2016-02-05T15:27:37Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > I would have thought that it had something to do with the Queen being the most powerful Nope, because in Arabic the queen isn’t a queen, it’s a **wazīr** , which means ‘minister’. Or _firzān_, from a Persian word with a similar meaning. Also, by pre-European chess rules, it didn’t have nearly as much power as it does now. > [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > I lived 4 years in the Arabian Gulf _Persian_ Gulf, if you please! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/388 "2016-02-05T15:49:35Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > _Persian_ Gulf, if you please! When in Arabia… 🆒😉 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/389 "2016-02-05T22:31:53Z")
I’m just glad that the “religious” fanatics in this country don’t control all the law (yet). ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/390 "2016-02-10T19:23:18Z")
When last I left you, we had A’isha claiming… > [@A\_isha](#): > > LEARNING WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT… FUCKING TOOL. > [@A\_isha](#): > > “Your ass” is not a source. When you go back through all the vitriol… that the Grand Mufti’s fatwa about Chess is akin to > [@A\_isha](#): > > Antonin Scalia …talking about something in a commencement speech at a high school somewhere. Other commentators agreed it had no legal meaning in Saudi Arabia. See posts 126, 163 and 208. My local library does not have the equivalent of “The Saudi Arabian Judicial System for Dummies”, but I found a resource that is suitable. It is “Studies in Modern Islamic Law and Jurisprudence”, by Oussama Arabi, [ISBN 90-411-1660-5](http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?keyword=90-411-1660-5&mtype=B&hs.x=0&hs.y=0&hs=Submit). Chapter 7 is titled “The Itinerary of a Fatwa: Ambulant Marriage (al-Zawaj Al-Misyar), or Grass Roots Law-Making in Saudi Arabia of the 1990s.” (Excuse me, but I am not going to type the quotes with some of the diacritical marks that appear on Arabic words). p. 147, the first sentence of the work. > [@](#): > > _Fatwa_ legal literature seems to be in touch with the living practice of law in Muslim societies, evincing a[n]… adaptation to new social … realities… > [@](#): > > The \*fatwa \*genre of legal practice is a privileged venue for this process whereby Islamic law succeeds in taking account of custom and/or new sociological developments. On the following pages, I illustrate this last point by examining the itinerary of a 1996 landmark _fatwa_ in which the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah bin Baz legalized a revolutionary family structure…[K]nown as “the ambulant marriage” [ed: Baz was the predecessor of our subject Abdul-Aziz ibn Abdullah Al Shaykh]. p. 148 > [@](#): > > In reality, the official ruling of the Grand Saudi Mufti is the terminus of a complex… intellectual itinerary…the ideological groundwork was done by freelance Saudi intellectuals on the pages of common journals months before its endorsement in the official state _fatwa_. p. 150-154 summarize the Islamic law on marriage, including polygynous marriage. Our issue under discussion concerns just Saudi Arabia, but I think this is worth quoting: p. 151 > [@](#): > > …the license to have up to four wives springs from the two most authoritative sources of values, the Divine Word and the sunna of the Prophet. > > p 152. …all four prevailing (Sunni) schools have admitted polygamy [ed: not polyandry] as perfectly legal since the ninth century C.E. p 154 - 156 describe the practice of one Fahd al-Salman, a marriage agent. In ambulatory marriage, the wife is not provided a home by the “husband”. Commonly she stays at her parents. The husband pays a dowry that is 10% of that of a usual marriage (p. 155). In return, he gets sex. [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikah_Misyar) is a Wikipedia that explains some background about this custom. The marriage is disclosed to two witnesses as required by Islamic law, but the kicker is that there is usually a provision of the marriage contract that the marriage is to be kept secret. p. 157 has the breakdown by “circuit”/school > [@](#): > > As for public announcement of marriage over and above the two witnesses, this is a … technical issue and a point of contention among the four Sunni schools of law, Malikism apart, the Hanafis, Shafi’is and one variant of Hanblism rule that “the discretion (_kitman_) of the contracting parties does not invalidate the marriage if there are two witnesses”. p 158-164 describe what I take to be “Letters to the Editor” in newspapers (or periodicals ? ) Jaridat 'Uqaz, and Aziza al-Mani (?). Various writers discuss the ethics and legality of Ambulant Marriage. One writer references “the classical Hanabali treatise _al-'Umda_”: p. 162 > [@](#): > > This is Hanbali doctrine, the law of the Saudi Kingdom p. 164 > [@](#): > > In the great tradition of Islamic legal interpretation, a _fatwa_ is a legal response by an authoritative jurist to a question posed to him by a lay person who wishes to know the law’s position on a novel issue; just as it is a religious obligation of the lay Muslim to inquire about the lawful and the unlawful in case of uncertainty, it is the religious duty of the learned [ed: I have a typo here. My notes say _legist_] to determine the correct ruling … The _fatwa_ was published in question and answer form in \* Jaridat al-Jarizra\*, September 30, 1996. > [@](#): > > Question: I have read in a journal… about…_al-zawaj al-misyar_…What is the ruling of the sublime Sacred Law on this marriage. Give us your legal response (_iftuna_) and may you obtain a Divine Recompense. [ed: WSJ reports in the U.S. legal fees can be $1,500/hr !] > > Response: There is nothing wrong with this…this is permissible on the condition that the marriage is made public and not kept secret. Earlier there is footnote 45 on p 163. > [@](#): > > The Grand Mufti…makes a critical use of this [principle being discussed] when he chooses to make a legal obligation of the requirement of publicity in marriage, thus abrogating the dominant position of the schools which only takes it as morally commendable but not legally binding. p. 166 > [@](#): > > Legislating for the Saudi State under the canopy of Hanbali marriage law, Ibn Baz opts for a minority ruling of that school, which amounts to leaving his personal imprint on the itinerary of the law…Ibn Baz’s _fatwa_ propels that practice [ed: ambulatory marriage] into further parts of the Kingdom… p. 167 > [@](#): > > The\* fatwa\* of the [G.M. of the K.] in favor of the ambulant union…by virtue of which it becomes a law of the Saudi State. In summary: There was a question about a certain practice. It was presented to the GM in an article, similar to a radio call-in show, and as opposed to an actual court case. He decided a specific issue, issued a _fatwa_, which became law under the judicial system of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. > [@A\_isha](#): > > …FUCKING TOOL. > [@A\_isha](#): > > Your ass… Tell me again who is pulling what out of whose ass? ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/391 "2016-07-22T19:53:06Z")
I thought today of this old post. The meta-story of how this was [asserted](http://www.arabnews.com/node/956681/saudi-arabia) and then [denied](http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/21/news/pokemon-go-saudi-arabia/) is not clear to me, and may not ever be. I did find it of interest that there is a General Secretariat of the Council of Senior Scholars; a General Presidency for Scholarly Research and Ifta which has a Standing Committee for Issuing Fatwas and that they number them, the one in question being. 21,758. Did Antonin Scalia have all this organization? (see #379). ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892/392 "2016-07-23T07:42:16Z")
I just don’t have time to review this entire thread, but surely someone has pointed out that calls for bans on chess or alterations of the pieces on the chessboard by Muslim clerics is as old as Islam itself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-religious-leader-of-saudi-arabia-bans-chess/743892.md?page=19)