# Top Secret American Destupization Project **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272 "2009-08-22T02:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/141 "2009-08-23T15:45:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t know about relevant Austrian or American tax code, but in Canada there’s a distinction between a “refundable tax credit” and a “non-refundable tax credit”. That is also true here, but tax credits and tax offsets are one thing while tax deductions are another. A tax deduction reduces your taxable income while a tax credit reduces your tax owed. A non-refundable tax credit can’t reduce your tax below $0, while a refundable tax credit can. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/142 "2009-08-23T16:18:03Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I’m pretty sure neither Italy nor Germany would be acceptable answers. > > What struck me as funny is that this followed **The Tao’s Revenge** ’s earlier comment about finding on a map. Not a thigh-slapper really, or even a joke, but I chortled all the same. > > Your mileage, etc. Liechtenstein? The beery swine? Who was just as sloshed as Schlegel? ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/143 "2009-08-23T16:47:10Z")
I really don’t see that the presence of ‘stupid’ people in the country is a problem. I know a couple who are really, genuinely stupid. As in mentally handicapped, not in the ‘drool on themselves’ level, but with IQ’s right around 70. Guess what? They both have jobs, they own a house, they pay their taxes, buy food, cook, keep up their houses, obey the laws, and so forth. IOW, they are perfectly well functioning members of society and their presence is a net gain to the country. And, yes, I really doubt they could point out Iraq on a map and I’m certain they couldn’t solve a quadratic equation. So what? In what way would having them gain that knowledge improve the well being of the country? OTOH, I really wouldn’t want to rely on them to design a good health care system or decide on banking controls or if we should go to war. But, so long as their are enough people who do have the intelligence and education to handle the top level tasks, does it matter how many people there are in the population who don’t? So the goal, as I see it, is how to keep the Ignorants from preventing the Smarts from creating and implementing Good Stuff. Here’s a stray thought: what if we put an economic value on voting? You can’t buy extra votes, but when you show up at a poll and check in, you get to choose between a ballot and a check for X dollars. (I’m not sure how much X would be, but I’m guessing not all that much.) My guess is that people who would rather have, say, $20 than a voice in who their next senator will be are much more likely to be the ones who didn’t care enough to learn about the issues and where the candidates stand. IOW, that the average level of thoughtful decision making behind the voting would go up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/144 "2009-08-23T16:55:38Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > I know a couple who are really, genuinely stupid. As in mentally handicapped, not in the ‘drool on themselves’ level, but with IQ’s right around 70. Guess what? They both have jobs, they own a house, they pay their taxes, buy food, cook, keep up their houses, obey the laws, and so forth. IOW, they are perfectly well functioning members of society and their presence is a net gain to the country. > > And, yes, I really doubt they could point out Iraq on a map and I’m certain they couldn’t solve a quadratic equation. So what? In what way would having them gain that knowledge improve the well being of the country? If they participate in polls and/or elections, their ignorance can harm this country. ---
**Author:** ![Category5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Category5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Category5)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/145 "2009-08-23T17:02:30Z")
Too easy! We all just move to Lake Woebegon, “where all the children are above average.” Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/146 "2009-08-23T17:08:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If they participate in polls and/or elections, their ignorance can harm this country. I’m pretty sure my vote cancels yours in most national elections. Which one of us is stupid? It ain’t me…I got degrees and stuff. It ain’t you…I dunno your background, but when you aren’t working your sarcasm gimmick to be annoying, you’ve demonstrated reasonable intellect. Assuming we are both, therefore, reasonably intelligent people, it would then appear that perhaps there was not, and usually is not, a clear-cut objectively superior choice in the most recent national election. If that is true, then voting for either major candidate is something a reasonably intelligent person might do, thus the “stupid” do no more or less objective harm with their ballots that you or I. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/147 "2009-08-23T17:10:34Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I’m pretty sure neither Italy nor Germany would be acceptable answers. Depending on how you interpret the question, of course. I can find points in Italy and Germany where one could take ten steps due west and be in Switzerland. Similarly, there are points in Germany and Italy where one could walk due east and end up in Austria. Hence, Switzerland borders Germany and Italy on the west and Austria borders them on the east. QED. Frankly, these kinds of tests (if a serious attempt was made to implement them) to ferret out stupid people could easily have the opposite effect - stymieing intelligent people who see some nuance or ambiguity. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/148 "2009-08-23T20:44:22Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > … voting for either major candidate is something a reasonably intelligent person might do … A lot of folks seem to disagree - but I call that rather, well, stupid. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/149 "2009-08-23T21:10:08Z")
Slippery slope and then some. If we start to apply standards of intelligence for voting, where does it stop? Literacy tests, for example? How would we do such a thing, and why? There’s an old, old joke about a black man trying to register to vote in Mississippi, where he is challenged by a number of qualifications: residency, etc. Finally, the cracker poll worker hands him a Chinese newspaper, and challenges him to read it and prove literacy. “Well, yes, I can read this newspaper quite clearly!” “Oh, yeah? Well, then, what does it say?!” “Says this Negro damn sure ain’t voting in Mississippi!” ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/150 "2009-08-23T22:51:21Z")
> [@Little\_Bird](#): > > Every four years, timed to half way between each presidential election, everyone in the US gets to choose: > > 1. You can vote in government polls, ie president, house, senate, school board, prop 37 or whatever. > OR > 2. You can vote for media related polls, ie American Idol, the next flavor of Mountain Dew, or **online polls about whether there is enough Jesus in schools.** (my bolding) Which one would YOU vote in?: 1. Prez 2. The ammount of Jesus in schools. By your own rule you can only vote in one ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/151 "2009-08-23T22:59:35Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > (my bolding) > Which one would YOU vote in?: > > 1. Prez > 2. The ammount of Jesus in schools. > > By your own rule you can only vote in one He said an opinion poll about the amount of Jesus, not a vote that would actually influence it. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/152 "2009-08-23T23:13:02Z")
Mr. President, I present two words. I.Q. The very idea is an anathema to the educational establishment, and this aversion leads to things like abolition of tracking by ability, throwing kids of different ability into the same classroom, letting the dumb and disruptive sidetrack the class and leaving the able students bored. Reinstate tracking, and let the kids who really want to drop out of high school, drop out. Stop holding the rest of the school hostage to dumb bullies in the name of egalitarianism. And by the way, Mr. President, if this separation of kids by abilities happens to have “disparate racial impact” (gosh who would [expect](http://isteve.blogspot.com/2009/07/every-single-ap-test-fails-eeocs-four.html)such an outcome?), **too bad**. Next up: dysgenic breeding. There’s [solid](http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2009/06/differences-in-fertility-by-class.php)[evidence](http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2009/06/tfr-by-class-and-nation.php)from throughout the world that the lower classes have more kids than the upper classes, and since earnings are strongly correlated with intelligence, and IQ is about 70% heritable, that is a problem. We need an incentive system for smart people to have kids and reverse this dysgenic trend. One way to make this politically palatable is to talk about “education” and not “intelligence;” one is acceptable in political discourse and the other is not. So let’s have a tax break for college-educated couples who have several kids. Finally, dump affirmative action. Extensive evidence has shown that we are overwhelmingly **not** picking up diamonds in the rough; even at the level of professional schools we find that non-Asian minorities admitted on quota are heavily overrepresented in the bottom quartile and have lower scores on advanced standardized tests such as the [MCAT](http://isteve.blogspot.com/2009/03/medical-school-test-scores-gpas-and_27.html) and board exams. This system is not only racist but represents an inefficient use of resources that could be used to educate students who could make much more use of that education. So in conclusion, if you are really interested in increasing the education level and intelligence of the American people, this is how you would go about it. Of course, if your real agenda is about making more people agree with your worldview, your policies would be correspondingly different. (Conversely we can get some idea of your real motivations by the policies that you do pursue, revealing any preferences aside from “educating people.”) So yeah, I wish you the best, Mr. President. Good luck on those midterm elections. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/153 "2009-08-23T23:14:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If they participate in polls and/or elections, their ignorance can harm this country. …and cuadratic equations and geography are important in voting because…? * * * **weirdaaron** , I was just tweaking his rules just a bit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/154 "2009-08-23T23:23:42Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Mr. President, I present two words. I.Q. > > The very idea is an anathema… No vote for you! ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/155 "2009-08-23T23:28:04Z")
Stupidity is a “pre-existing condition.” Deny them all health care! ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/156 "2009-08-24T01:37:51Z")
Can we put this project on hold for a couple hours? The Miss Universe Pageant is being broadcast on NBC right now. ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/157 "2009-08-24T02:35:41Z")
Lots of U.S. Americans do not have maps. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/158 "2009-08-24T03:45:09Z")
> [@Weston](#): > > I firmly believe that American political discourse is truly fucked and will never get any better. “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle.” --Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Norvell (June 11, 1807) “The fat Russian agent was cornering all the foreign refugees in turn and explaining plausibly that this whole affair was an Anarchist plot. I watched him with some interest, for it was the first time that I had seen a person whose profession was telling lies - unless one counts journalists.” --Orwell, _Homage to Catalonia_ > [@](#): > > The only way to keep people from believing stupid shit is to drastically reduce the number of outlets spreading it You have GOT to be kidding. That’s what we had pre-Internet. Only now are we beginning to discover what bullshit went totally unchallenged then. For fuck’s sake, we now catch significant errors in the MSM that their so-called journalistic standards and their vaunted layers of editors and fact-checkers did not because THEY DIDN’T EVEN GOOGLE THE INFO! And that’s directly thanks not to “any fuckwit with a broadband connection”, but rather to the few out of the thousands who read blogs that provide specialized knowledge on a particular subject that a single media outlet CAN’T. The unofficial motto of the blogosphere is “We can fact-check your ass.” AND THEY DO. That’s not bad. It’s GREAT. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/159 "2009-08-24T03:55:48Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > …and cuadratic equations and geography are important in voting because…? While I’d set the bar lower than quadratic equations, someone who does not possess a working understanding of mathematics (and by extension, economics) is more likely to buy into a proposal that _sounds_ good, but would be self-defeating and actively harmful. And while nobody gives a damn about Liechenstein, a failure to identify the UK or France on a map demonstrates both an inadequate education and a lack of interest in the outside world. It would not prove someone is intelligent and informed enough to make good decisions, but it would weed out the worst of those who _aren’t_. /handwave ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272/160 "2009-08-24T04:06:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Depending on how you interpret the question, of course. I can find points in Italy and Germany where one could take ten steps due west and be in Switzerland. Similarly, there are points in Germany and Italy where one could walk due east and end up in Austria. Hence, Switzerland borders Germany and Italy on the west and Austria borders them on the east. QED. > > Frankly, these kinds of tests (if a serious attempt was made to implement them) to ferret out stupid people could easily have the opposite effect - stymieing intelligent people who see some nuance or ambiguity. “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.” Bertrand Russell [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-secret-american-destupization-project/507272.md?page=9)