# Top Ten Scientific Proofs of Creation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231 "2012-04-19T02:09:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Jon55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@Jon55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon55)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/282 "2012-04-21T18:26:36Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Wow. What circular ‘reasoning’ > > Do you feel you need a God? If so why? Either we both exist because of God or we dont so we both do or do not need God. My reasoning is taken right out of the Bible from words written by people who had no idea that science would be able to explain so much of our surroundings. Faith was required of them and it is required of me. > [@enipla](#): > > I’m an atheist. But I do follow the basic tenets of Christianity. Do unto others… and so forth and so on. That is great and I am glad you do and I do not doubt you bit because I have a good friend who is an atheist and lives his life much the same way I do. He just has more free time on Sundays. Some say there are no atheists in heaven and of course that will be true but I tend to believe that there will be some who were atheists till death. At the very least you will make it ahead of some who pray for people to “make thier toes curl” > [@enipla](#): > > I do not need Christianity to tell me these very basic facts of life. > > Not because I fear the wrath of some God, but because as a moral, just and kind person it’s what you do. Many of any faith seem to think the only way to be ‘righteous’ is to fear what some God may do to them if they don’t worship He/She/It. That’s not a God that I can accept. > > This makes me a bit afraid of those that seem to need some higher power just to be a good person. > > I don’t fear the laws of man or some imaginary God. I don’t have to. I can be a good person all on my own. > > If I’m wrong, so be it. I would not want to meet a God that would punish those that can be good without fearing or loving Him/She/It. For one thing when the Bible uses the word fear it usually means respect it depends on the context. But some people do need that fear to start them on a better path but the Bible is very clear that if fear is all thats driving a person that person is in the wrong. New Testament Christianty is all about internal motives. The outside actions are a result of that. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/283 "2012-04-21T20:10:28Z")
> [@Jon55](#): > > Either we both exist because of God or we dont so we both do or do not need God. Huh? I asked why do YOU need God. Do you think that you would be a bad person and hurt others If you did not believe in God? Is your faith preventing you from being a bad person? > [@Jon55](#): > > New Testament Christianty is all about internal motives. The outside actions are a result of that. You just explained evolution. Just leave out the New Testament part. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/284 "2012-04-21T20:55:37Z")
> [@supermegaman](#): > > you all do understand there are more people on the planet that believe in a god and creator than there are atheists? Christianity, Islam, Hindu, all believe in some sort of creator. So what? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > I teach physics in a small, religious town in Texas. You just shot down every argument against the existence of hell. ---
**Author:** ![PSico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a88e57/32.png) [@PSico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSico)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/285 "2012-04-21T21:28:06Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Trying to convince Creationists … is a fool’s errand. Seems that there are a few fools in this thread. Or some non-creationists trying to convince each other. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/286 "2012-04-21T21:30:07Z")
> [@PSico](#): > > Seems that there are a few fools in this thread. Or some non-creationists trying to convince each other. Got evidence for your argument? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/287 "2012-04-21T21:46:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The foundation of our understanding of evolution and genetics is based on the works of [Gregor Mendel.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel) Who was an Augustinian Friar. So, by definition, anyone who accepts the concept of genetics, must agree with evidence (and argument) produced by a Christian. Darwin himself was a staunch Christian, almost became a clergyman and greatly admired the writings of Paley (the IF watch THEN watchmaker guy), although he ended his life a fairly conflicted agnostic. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/288 "2012-04-21T21:50:48Z")
> [@PSico](#): > > some non-creationists trying to convince each other. So, got any proof as for why, even if humans were Created, despite literally all the evidence which is to the contrary, we should think it was the Christian God that did it and not Ahura Mazda? Or just more vacuous insults designed to cover the fact that you aint got nuthin? ---
**Author:** ![PSico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a88e57/32.png) [@PSico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSico)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/289 "2012-04-21T22:15:00Z")
You said that trying to convince Creationists is a fool’s errand. If there are some people in this thread who are trying to convince Creationists, and if your statement is true, then those people are on a fool’s errand. But, if those people are not trying to convince Creationists, they must be doing something else. So, please, tell me: When you are presenting your arguments to Creationists, are you trying to convince anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/290 "2012-04-21T22:30:24Z")
Hope springs eternal. Also, for the edification of the peanut gallery. Me, I do it for the amusement. Watching creationists contort themselves into pretzels is better than anything on tv. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/291 "2012-04-21T23:25:08Z")
> [@PSico](#): > > So, please, tell me: When you are presenting your arguments to Creationists, are you trying to convince anyone? It’s better than doing nothing and just letting ignorance like [this](http://i.imgur.com/btAln.jpg) continue. I mean, won’t someone think of the children? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/292 "2012-04-22T00:14:21Z")
> [@PSico](#): > > You said that trying to convince Creationists is a fool’s errand. > If there are some people in this thread who are trying to convince Creationists, and if your statement is true, then those people are on a fool’s errand. > But, if those people are not trying to convince Creationists, they must be doing something else. > > So, please, tell me: When you are presenting your arguments to Creationists, are you trying to convince anyone? Perhaps we are trying to convince lurkers? Perhaps we are trying to lay out the evidence for those who find this thread in a search? Or perhaps, given the large number of Americans who believe in this stuff, we are trying to find someone who can give a halfway logical argument for it. I’d be satisfied with a creationist who could at least describe what evolution says ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/293 "2012-04-22T00:32:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’d be satisfied with a creationist who could at least describe what evolution says I’d be satisfied if creationists kept their ideas out of our science classes. Creationists can believe whatever they want. Really. What ever floats your boat is fine with me. Just don’t confuse it with science and critical thinking. Science is not trying to invade churches. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/294 "2012-04-22T00:59:14Z")
Random nitpick: > [@Sampsiceramos](#): > > … any species lacking an instinct that drives it to procreate will soon go extinct. A such instinct is **quite adequately** explained by evolution, in that a lack of it would preclude reproduction. As such, any mutation causing it would give the bearer an immense reproductive advantage, and therefore result in its spread. Actually, a fair number of invertebrate species exist (bed bugs among them) where the females actively avoid mating, due to the lovely practice of [traumatic insemination](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traumatic_insemination), which is actively damaging, and can lead to premature death. The species’ continutation relies entirely on the males’ sex drive, so only half the species has one. I know that’s completely irrelevant, I just find it interesting. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/295 "2012-04-22T01:12:04Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > The species’ continutation relies entirely on the males’ sex drive, so only half the species has one. We’re still talking about bedbugs, right? ---
**Author:** ![Jon55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@Jon55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon55)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/296 "2012-04-22T02:34:48Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Huh? I asked why do YOU need God. > > Do you think that you would be a bad person and hurt others If you did not believe in God? Is your faith preventing you from being a bad person? > > You just explained evolution. Just leave out the New Testament part. Thats like asking my last post what it needs Jon for. One thing that is nice about having God is the times when things are going so good and I just feel like thanking someone I have someone to thank. And the times when things are going so bad I just want to unload on someone I have that too. If I discarded my faith would I be a bad person? Uh…define bad. I dont think I would be a terrible person. BTW I havent always been a “true believer” and many times I have doubts and most times I fall pretty short of what I think I should be. I guess I would drink more, smoke some weed and go watch some porn. Is that bad?😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/297 "2012-04-22T02:48:30Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > It’s better than doing nothing and just letting ignorance like [this](http://i.imgur.com/btAln.jpg) continue. I mean, won’t someone think of the children? That was great. Especially the bit about boys being attracted to dinosaurs - homorexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Jon55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@Jon55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon55)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/298 "2012-04-22T03:26:30Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > But surely someone as intelligent as you can see how nebulous that is. I have enriched my life immensely by reading a physics text. > > If you want to offer the New Testament as proof of God, then it has some much more specific and testable claims, and I solemnly assure you they would make me an instant convert if they were true, rather than being proven false a thousand times a day. As I said before if proof were offered faith would not be required. However we can and need to decide what is reasonable. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast that which is good. The Bible is not exempt from this testing note that in 1 Timothy 4:1 thru 3 it says 1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. I think those words were written around 50 AD as do many scholars (I am not a scholar BTW) however there are some who push that back by 100 more years. But it was not till the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD that monks and nuns were indeed forbidden to marry and then another 600 or 700 years later that priests were added to that list. > [@TonySinclair](#): > > Matthew 21:21-22 says that anyone with faith will get ANYTHING he prays for, and even gives examples — such as casting a mountain into the sea, or killing a fig tree because it didn’t bear fruit out of season — to show that the request does not have to be noble or unselfish, or even of any use. It just says “anything.” Jesus was speaking to a specific group of people at that time. Paul told of the age of those kinds of miracles coming to end In 1 Corinthians Chapter 13. > [@TonySinclair](#): > > And in another passage at the end of Mark, it says believers will be able to handle snakes, drink poison, and cure sickness. The technical term for people who test these verses is either “corpses” or “bereaved parents,” depending on the context. Again He was speaking to a specific group and although we do not have a record of any of the apostles drinking poison we do have accounts of them healing the sick and handling snakes. > [@TonySinclair](#): > > Those are promises made by Jesus Christ himself, and they are easily tested, and they don’t work. All of Christendom prayed for deliverance from the Black Death, back when there were no liberal commie atheistic professors to sway the simple faith of the peasants, and they still died at exactly the same rate as Jews, Muslims, and pagans. > > Religion doesn’t work. If it makes you feel better, swell, but don’t try to say it’s empirically true, because it’s demonstrably false. What exactly about the middle ages makes you think that people had a lot of faith? I mean we have popes in that era running around behaving more like serial killers than anything else. Your a bright person can you find any justification in the Bible for either the crusades or the inquisition? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/299 "2012-04-22T03:30:55Z")
You shall not suffer a witch to live comes to mind. If Jesus’ and Paul’s words were meant only for a select group that no longer exists, I fail to see what relevance they have to us now. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/300 "2012-04-22T03:56:12Z")
> [@Jon55](#): > > As I said before if proof were offered faith would not be required. And? Faith is irrational and destructive. You can’t demonstrate that your faith in god X is any better than the belief in god Y or Z. And once you start making decisions based on faith you can justify anything at all. There’s nothing admirable about faith. > [@Jon55](#): > > What exactly about the middle ages makes you think that people had a lot of faith? > I mean we have popes in that era running around behaving more like serial killers than anything else. In other words, they were acting like people motivated by faith. Like someone motivated by dogma and the drive to expand the faith, and ignoring the actual consequences to their victims and themselves. Genuine moral behavior is incompatible with faith; at best, the faithful go through the motions until their faith pushes them into doing something immoral; genuine morality requires judgment and perception, not mindless faith. Someone operating on faith is as incapable of being moral as some machine running on a program. > [@Jon55](#): > > Your a bright person can you find any justification in the Bible for either the crusades or the inquisition? It is a direct consequence of the basic Christian worldview that Christianity is by nature inclined toward extreme aggression and tyranny. They have the one true faith; only those who agree will go to heaven; those who disagree burn forever; and they must spread the “good news”. Converting others does an infinite amount of good, as does preventing someone from spread un-Christian beleifs; it is a direct logical consequence that anything, anything at all is justified to spread the faith. Kill a million people and convert one survivor to Christianity, and you’ve done an infinite amount of good. Christianity is omnimalignant, the enemy of everything. It seeks to replace everything with itself. ---
**Author:** ![Jon55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@Jon55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon55)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231/301 "2012-04-22T04:09:13Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > You do know that “It may look like a flaw, and we wouldn’t have designed it that way, but since God did it must not be a flaw even if we don’t understand why He made it look like one” is not a very strong argument, right? > And one of the strongest points FOR a natural development of a body part or system is the fact that it works just well enough just often enough that we don’t all keel over and die. A designed system would not have such failure points, but an evolved system would be expected to have them. I disagree. Ever took apart a gasoline combustion engine? For those who have answered no please do that sometime or take apart an old computer or tv unless you have been trained and know what you are looking at I am willing to bet you cannot spot the design flaws which do exist. You know those who are capable can do amazing things with the human body these days at one point during my late grandads life he was having problems with his bladder and the surgeon told me he removed it and pushed it down into a container of water to see where the leak was. Thats the same thing you do with a tire intertube when you are trying to find the hole. That was quite a feat from my point of view and prob just another day at the office for him. But until they can take a handfull of dirt and make a walking talking creature out of it I will still insist that there are things they dont understand. Perhaps you will enjoy this and it is just a joke. I dont really believe in a literal genesis. So the scientest says to God “I have finally done it…I have made a living breathing man from nothing more than a handfull of dirt” God replies “The proof is in the pudding…lets see.” Scientest “Let me see Your way while I prepare the lab” God “OK” picks up a handfull of dirt and drops it and there stands a man. Scientest “Wow that is something. My way is a bit more complicated but we get the same result in the end.” bends over to pick up some dirt. God “Hey get your own dirt.” > [@DrFidelius](#): > > (Added- and my “eternal destination” is going to be decided at Judgement by how well I treated the other people I shared this world with. If “belief in one particular origin myth” is 50% of our final grade, we are all fucked.) Now this…I agree wholeheartedly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/top-ten-scientific-proofs-of-creation/619231.md?page=16)