# Topless Transsexual Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 15, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295 "2004-10-15T00:45:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ranovercat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb8c5e/32.png) [@ranovercat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ranovercat)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/1 "2004-10-15T00:45:19Z")
Can a transsexual appearing fully female; but lacking the legal status thereof, be arrested for going topless in public? (Where its also illegal for genetic females to do so?) I’m curious if they where to be arrested, would it hold any weight in court. Could you file for wrongful arrest? ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/2 "2004-10-15T01:41:39Z")
Depends on the jurisdiction, I’d say, and the specific wording of laws. I don’t recall that that guy who got breast implants (on a bet) got the TV shows he appeared on in any trouble with the FCC. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/3 "2004-10-15T02:13:53Z")
In at least some venues, the laws against (or permitting) toplessness are gender-neutral. If the males can go shirtless the females can’t be made to cover up on top either; if it’s against the rules for girls to go topless the boys have to wear something up top as well. In other venues this may not be specifically so, but I think you’ll find that actual arrests do not reference any gender-specific ordinances these days. Causing a commotion, disturbing the peace, perhaps (and then the burden to prove lack of gender parity is on the arrested person). ---
**Author:** ![ranovercat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb8c5e/32.png) [@ranovercat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ranovercat)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/4 "2004-10-15T15:26:48Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > In at least some venues, the laws against (or permitting) toplessness are gender-neutral. If the males can go shirtless the females can’t be made to cover up on top either; if it’s against the rules for girls to go topless the boys have to wear something up top as well. > > In other venues this may not be specifically so, but I think you’ll find that actual arrests do not reference any gender-specific ordinances these days. Causing a commotion, disturbing the peace, perhaps (and then the burden to prove lack of gender parity is on the arrested person). That really suprises me. I know from recounts of “Naked News” that certain areas of Canada may find this legal; however, I was under the impression that the US had strict indecent exposure laws in force. I mean Its hard for me to believe if “your average joe” of a man went jogging down most main streets without a top on- no one would bat an eye. Yet if Britney Spears transsexual look-a-like did the same thing, she wouldn’t get more attention. I can imagine her running by a elementary school right about the time school gets out and all the parents are there picking up the kids. If she would do this more then a few times, (not disturbing the peace, just out for a jog) I imagine some parent would finally call the police. Would the police actually arrive and say there is nothing they can do (not knowing she isn’t a female) ?? I’d be suprised if that where the case. If they asked her to cover up and refused, I imagine they would arrest her. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/5 "2004-10-15T15:35:52Z")
> [@ranovercat](#): > > Would the police actually arrive and say there is nothing they can do (not knowing she isn’t a female) ?? Well, except she _would_ be female. ---
**Author:** ![ranovercat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb8c5e/32.png) [@ranovercat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ranovercat)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/6 "2004-10-15T15:43:11Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Well, except she _would_ be female. Not necessarily. Transsexual means changing sex. Female means female. She could appear female, yet still have male genitalia. But even not, what the original question asked was if her legal status was still male. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/7 "2004-10-15T17:10:14Z")
> [@ranovercat](#): > > Not necessarily. Transsexual means changing sex. Female means female. She could appear female, yet still have male genitalia. But even not, what the original question asked was if her legal status was still male. Dude, trust me here, you don’t want to argue the definition of transsexual with **Eve**. Suffice to say that a male-to-female TS is female, regardless of where she is in the transition process. From a legal standpoint, the answer depends on jurisdiction. There are some states which allow trans-people to get amended birth certificates reflecting their corrected sex. Other states, as was noted in your other thread involving TS issues, determine legal sex on the basis of chromosomes. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/8 "2004-10-15T17:35:41Z")
> [@ranovercat](#): > > That really suprises me. I know from recounts of “Naked News” that certain areas of Canada may find this legal; however, I was under the impression that the US had strict indecent exposure laws in force. Indecent exposure is not a federal offense, and “the US” as a collective does not appear to have any laws at all on the subject. It’s a matter left up to state and local law, and the strictness varies greatly from place to place. According to the short entry at [The Online Lawyer Source](http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/criminal_law/indecent_exposure.html), in some places people have been charged with indecent exposure for just “wearing a Speedo and cut-off shirt into a fast food restaurant while on vacation at a lake”, so going completely topless would certainly be a no-no there. However, in other places it seems that the “indecent exposure” charge can only be brought against someone who actually exposed their genitals in public. > [@](#): > > \*I mean Its hard for me to believe if “your average joe” of a man went jogging down most main streets without a top on- no one would bat an eye. Yet if Britney Spears transsexual look-a-like did the same thing, she wouldn’t get more attention. \*You do realize that this doesn’t make any sense, don’t you? You can’t believe that no one cares about shirtless jogging men, but at the same time you don’t think a topless Britney-clone would attract more attention than the no-attention you can’t believe the man would get? Whatever you were trying to say here, you failed in the attempt. ---
**Author:** ![ranovercat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb8c5e/32.png) [@ranovercat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ranovercat)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/9 "2004-10-15T18:10:05Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Indecent exposure is not a federal offense, and “the US” as a collective does not appear to have any laws at all on the subject. It’s a matter left up to state and local law, and the strictness varies greatly from place to place. > > According to the short entry at [The Online Lawyer Source](http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/criminal_law/indecent_exposure.html), in some places people have been charged with indecent exposure for just “wearing a Speedo and cut-off shirt into a fast food restaurant while on vacation at a lake”, so going completely topless would certainly be a no-no there. However, in other places it seems that the “indecent exposure” charge can only be brought against someone who actually exposed their genitals in public. > > \*You do realize that this doesn’t make any sense, don’t you? You can’t believe that no one cares about shirtless jogging men, but at the same time you don’t think a topless Britney-clone would attract more attention than the no-attention you can’t believe the man would get? Whatever you were trying to say here, you failed in the attempt. What I’m saying, is a female appearing individual running down the street with her top off is going to get attention. Men on the otherhand don’t. Now I’ve lived all across the US and have never had any other understanding of the understood law up till this post. That it was illegal for a woman to bare her breasts, but legal for a man. I’ve always assumed this was the case. Being that laws varies as it has been mentioned; but assuming as my original question indicates that it is illeagal for for a woman to do so, and assuming it is legal for a man to do so. Whats a cop to do? ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/10 "2004-10-15T18:21:51Z")
> [@ranovercat](#): > > Now I’ve lived all across the US and have never had any other understanding of the understood law up till this post. That it was illegal for a woman to bare her breasts, but legal for a man. I’ve always assumed this was the case. Not in New York it isn’t. It saddens me that so few women in this state take advantage of their legal right to be topless in public. Embrace your freedoms, ladies. ---
**Author:** ![ranovercat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb8c5e/32.png) [@ranovercat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ranovercat)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/11 "2004-10-15T18:25:08Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > Not in New York it isn’t. > > It saddens me that so few women in this state take advantage of their legal right to be topless in public. Embrace your freedoms, ladies. This so suprises me… Wow… You learn something new everyday! Here I assumed breasts where bad… Guess not… So why no topless shows on cable in the US filmed here I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/12 "2004-10-15T19:04:57Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > Not in New York it isn’t. > > It saddens me that so few women in this state take advantage of their legal right to be topless in public. Embrace your freedoms, ladies. I live in Albany, Exgineer. (makes mental note to be ultra-careful around Exgineer - never know when he might try to take the law into his own hands. wow, I totally didn’t mean that double entendre.) ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/13 "2004-10-15T19:18:21Z")
> [@ranovercat](#): > > What I’m saying, is a female appearing individual running down the street with her top off is going to get attention. Men on the otherhand don’t. Maybe not from _you_ they don’t. What’s a cop to do? Something more important. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/14 "2004-10-15T19:45:13Z")
> [@Elenia28](#): > > I live in Albany, Exgineer. > > (makes mental note to be ultra-careful around Exgineer - never know when he might try to take the law into his own hands. wow, I totally didn’t mean that double entendre.) Just remember that rights not excersized can atrophy. You should really take a more active role in the preservation of liberty. Don’t worry, by the way. I’m harmless. Some of these other guys though… ---
**Author:** ![ranovercat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb8c5e/32.png) [@ranovercat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ranovercat)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/15 "2004-10-15T20:27:17Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > Just remember that rights not excersized can atrophy. You should really take a more active role in the preservation of liberty. > > Don’t worry, by the way. I’m harmless. Some of these other guys though… Now see! You got me, wanting to test this out in front of town hall during the next town meeting! 🙂 Just have to wait for a warm day… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/16 "2004-10-16T02:09:04Z")
> [@ranovercat](#): > > Now I’ve lived all across the US and have never had any other understanding of the understood law up till this post. That it was illegal for a woman to bare her breasts, but legal for a man. I’ve always assumed this was the case. You’re probably confusing “illegal” with “something precious few women would ever choose to do”. Why the heck would any woman ever decide to go jogging topless? Social considerations aside, it would be _painful_. A stroll down to the mailbox wouldn’t be such a physical problem, but even if she thought it would be fun she’d have to realize that she’d both upset the neighbors and be seen as “asking for it”. A reasonable transsexual woman would be even less likely to want to attract negative attention in this way. I would venture to guess that _if_ there are indecent exposure laws enforced only against topless women and never against topless men then this is either because the former is seen as causing a public disturbance/violating community standards and the latter is not, or because the breasts are specifically listed in the law as a body part that cannot be revealed in public. In the former case, I doubt any community that gets upset about topless women would be willing to give one a pass because she’s transsexual. In the latter case, a transsexual woman with breasts would be in the same position as any other woman with breasts (or even a man with breasts). > [@](#): > > \*Being that laws varies as it has been mentioned; but assuming as my original question indicates that it is illeagal for for a woman to do so, and assuming it is legal for a man to do so. Whats a cop to do? \*If it’s actually against the law and citizens have been complaining? Arrest her and let the DA sort it out. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/17 "2004-10-16T03:31:20Z")
Topless? In San Francisco, it’s legal to go around [bottomless](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6075406/) if it’s not for prurient purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/18 "2004-10-16T03:41:39Z")
Of course, thouse of us who ride bicycles are [above](http://bicycleaustin.info/nakedride.html) such nonsense :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/19 "2004-10-16T03:43:42Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > Just remember that rights not excersized can atrophy. I stand by my above post … I think :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295/20 "2004-10-16T05:33:34Z")
I read of a least one case where an exotic dancer was performing topless in a g-string. She was arrested as the local law prohibited topless dancing. At her court appearance she pointed out that the law only prohibited women from dancing topless. When she was asked what relevance this had, she told the court she was a male-to-female transexual but that the state refused to recognize her as legally being a woman. Therefore she must legally be a man and the law didn’t apply to her. She was aquitted. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/topless-transsexual-question/269295.md?page=2)