# Tops off! The acceptability of public half-nudity for women **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 28, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630 "2013-01-28T18:20:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/81 "2013-01-30T17:38:42Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > ‘Urine is sterile’ is such a misused, bullshit argument. It’s usually sterile when it comes out, whereupon it promptly provides a source of nutrients for microorganisms. At best, peeing in public is equivalent to littering. Its not a significant health hazard though was the point. Having frequented some public urination spots (the alcove behind my ATM is popular spot), I have empirical evidence to back this up. If you can demonstrate that its dangerous, feel free. [QUOTE=Princhester] And urine is stinky. Really, HoboStew, you need to come up with an analogy that doesn’t involve leaving a physical mess, and only involves a temporary sight you’d rather not see. The fact you have to this point persistently not done so suggests you using analogies that don’t really work because if you use an analogy that does, your position is fundamentally pissweak. [/QUOTE] Analogies aren’t perfect, that’s why they are analogies and not the thing. Will peeing in a gutter work for you? If not, and you would like to cast about for the platonic ideal analogy, be my guest. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/82 "2013-01-30T20:03:36Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Plenty of dudes were looking just as hard, just not gawking. They are the dudes who know how to do it subtly. Every man is looking at you and thinking about having sex with you. Most just don’t let you know. But now you know. You’re telling me this as if you are assuming that I don’t know. I don’t want to control their thoughts, they just need to behave themselves. Sure everyone looks (even women), it’s when it crosses the line into creepy or presumptive harassment (assuming people who go to clothing optional venues are easy lays, treating the beach or the pool like a pickup joint, etc). Some people think being in clothing optional venues means they no longer have to adhere to rules of common courtesy which is why many people _have_ published rules of etiquette for clothing optional venues. The waving from a far and waiting for the okay to approach ‘rule’ may be unique to clothing optional venues. The use of cameras comes under more scrutiny as well. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Well, that’s interesting. Some people think a flaccid penis is “just gross” and that’s why they oppose nudity, even without boners. So it’s a matter of degree. Some people simply think nudity = sex, all the time. If people, oppose nudity then don’t go to clothing optional places. If people think nudity = sex, all the time, I would advise them not to go to clothing optional venues as well. In my experience, if some guy got a boner on a nude beach he would typically sit himself on a towel until it went away. Yeah, there was once some dude who actually strutted around wearing a cock ring, but none of us ever talked to him and steered clear of him (while making fun of his ‘peacocking’ among ourselves). Nude beaches/topless pools are interesting places to observe human behavior, precisely because different rules sometimes apply – even though the atmosphere is more uninhibited. Actually, there is probably a higher degree of expectation on proper behavior in clothing optional venues than there is in the clothed world. I’m not sure what you are arguing here? Going on about how puritanical Americans are about public nudity, but then telling women that every man who sees her topless at a beach/pool is imagining having sex with her (which isn’t exactly news)? It’s simple, just don’t act like a creep – that’s all. Back to the OP, again I say make the rules of public exposure the same for men and women. I doubt many women will go topless outside of Pride, Mardi Gras or Slut Walks, etc, because there is still a pervading notion that men by “nature” :rolleyes: just can’t possibly be expected to behave around naked women, and thus if they step over the line their behavior is frequently excused and blamed on the woman. Where in clothing optional venues rules of etiquette are generally more enforced and creepy behavior will be more likely to be stamped out and not excused. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/83 "2013-01-30T20:35:18Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > Its not a significant health hazard though was the point. Having frequented some public urination spots (the alcove behind my ATM is popular spot), I have empirical evidence to back this up. If you can demonstrate that its dangerous, feel free. Who said anything about _dangerous_? Are breasts _dangerous_? If not, then it’s a pointless analogy. Urine is unpleasant and persistent - that’s enough to make it a useless comparison to me. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/84 "2013-01-30T21:08:51Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Who said anything about _dangerous_? Are breasts _dangerous_? If not, then it’s a pointless analogy. > Urine is unpleasant and persistent - that’s enough to make it a useless comparison to me. Please pay attention to the thread before responding. I compared it to poop, which was objected to on the grounds that it is a health hazard while nudity isn’t. We then moved on to pee. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/85 "2013-01-30T21:35:24Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Who said anything about _dangerous_? Are breasts _dangerous_? If not, then it’s a pointless analogy. They self-evidently are. Do you have any ideahow many young men get injured _every day_ trying to get closer to them ? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/86 "2013-01-30T21:58:50Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > Please pay attention to the thread before responding. I compared it to poop, which was objected to on the grounds that it is a health hazard while nudity isn’t. We then moved on to pee. I was paying attention. You switched one useless analogy for another that’s still pretty useless. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/87 "2013-01-30T22:45:44Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > Analogies aren’t perfect, that’s why they are analogies and not the thing. Will peeing in a gutter work for you? If not, and you would like to cast about for the platonic ideal analogy, be my guest. Analogies need to be apt and yours aren’t because you are clinging to actions with physical consequences when the subject action does not have any physical consequences and only offends your fleeting aesthetic preference. Personally I find it hard to justify my support of legal restriction of other people’s activities in order to avoid trivial infringement of my aesthetic preference. I’m not going to do all your work in coming up with an analogy for you but here’s a template to work from: _“Public nudity should be illegal because it’s like [insert something you find fleetingly aesthetically displeasing but is physically consequenceless here].”_ There you go. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/88 "2013-01-30T22:58:22Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I was paying attention. You switched one useless analogy for another that’s still pretty useless. No you weren’t otherwise you wouldn’t have asked questions that A) had been addressed upthread (who said anything about it being dangerous) and B) have no relevance to what I was discussing (are boobs dangerous). > [@Princhester](#): > > Analogies need to be apt and yours aren’t because you are clinging to actions with physical consequences when the subject action does not have any physical consequences and only offends your fleeting aesthetic preference. Personally I find it hard to justify my support of legal restriction of other people’s activities in order to avoid trivial infringement of my aesthetic preference. > > I’m not going to do all your work in coming up with an analogy for you but here’s a template to work from: > > _“Public nudity should be illegal because it’s like [insert something you find fleetingly aesthetically displeasing but is physically consequenceless here].”_ > > There you go. You didnt answer the question. Will peeing in a gutter, where the pee no longer leaves a mess behind, work for you? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/89 "2013-01-30T23:28:53Z")
I think you know I answered your question but to spell it out: no. It still smells, particularly if you have a dry spell. People can step in it and get pee on their shoes. You _really_ don’t want to let go of an analogy involving actions with physical consequences, do you? Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/90 "2013-01-30T23:33:56Z")
I hate it when I drop my areolas in the gutter. Watch where you step! ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/91 "2013-01-30T23:53:27Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I think you know I answered your question but to spell it out: no. It still smells, particularly if you have a dry spell. People can step in it and get pee on their shoes. > > You _really_ don’t want to let go of an analogy involving actions with physical consequences, do you? Why is that? I’ll let go when you actually address it. Someone pees in a rain gutter, through little drain things. The pee is gone. There is no smell or anything to step in. NOW does it work? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/92 "2013-01-30T23:55:52Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I hate it when I drop my areolas in the gutter. Watch where you step! Come now. Show some decorum. It’s “areolæ”. Please. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/93 "2013-01-31T00:00:58Z")
Dude, disinterested observer says let the piss thing go. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/94 "2013-01-31T00:04:10Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > I’ll let go when you actually address it. Someone pees in a rain gutter, through little drain things. The pee is gone. There is no smell or anything to step in. NOW does it work? No, because rain drains are not regularly flushed and have no little deodorant blocks in them and will come to stink. But next you’ll be saying “but what if it’s raining, so it gets flushed, and there absolutely no physical consequences other than seeing some guy take a whizz”. I’m not sure that works, because if that’s legal then it becomes a very fine line for police to enforce between pissing in drains in the rain being legal and pissing in drains otherwise not being legal, and how hard does it have to be raining and yada yada. But I’ll do you favour and accept that sooner or later you will have reduced your example down to the point where we are talking about the mere sight of some guy having a piss, in circumstances where there are no physical consequences whatsoever and the guy’s action has become a mere fleeting aesthetic anomaly. At that point, your analogy will work, but at that point I couldn’t give a damn about the guy taking the whizz and don’t think it should be illegal. Fundamentally, your problem is that you are trying to justify your support of legal restriction of other people’s activities in order to avoid trivial infringement of your aesthetic preference. No analogy is going to get you out of that. Just face up to your position instead of trying to weasel out of it with silly inapt analogies. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/95 "2013-01-31T00:20:57Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Come now. Show some decorum. It’s “areolæ”. Please. I’m reddened with shame. Or pinked, at least. And another vote for, if it ain’t leaving smelly puddles, I really don’t give a…uh…care where you piss. I can avert my eyes. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/96 "2013-01-31T00:27:53Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > At that point, your analogy will work, but at that point I couldn’t give a damn about the guy taking the whizz and don’t think it should be illegal. So now that we’ve gotten past your endless parade of semantics, we have gotten to the heart of the issue. You dont think its gross, I do. As with the public nudity issue, more people seem to agree with me, so there we go. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/97 "2013-01-31T00:35:24Z")
Boobs are not gross. Boobs are fun. However, I honestly believe that even after female toplessness is decriminalized, only very few women will take advantage of the freedom. People like their clothes too much; it is difficult to display status when nude. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/98 "2013-01-31T00:36:35Z")
Lots of people think fat people are gross. Are they entitled to an ordinance telling fat people to stay indoors? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/99 "2013-01-31T00:46:29Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > So now that we’ve gotten past your endless parade of semantics, we have gotten to the heart of the issue. Oh it was me, was it? I’m sorry. I thought it was you saying that being nude was the same as taking a shit. I apologise. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630/100 "2013-01-31T01:19:50Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Oh it was me, was it? I’m sorry. I thought it was you saying that being nude was the same as taking a shit. I apologise. [You might find this helpful](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tops-off-the-acceptability-of-public-half-nudity-for-women/648630.md?page=6)