# Torah Torah Torah

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876>\
**Category:** Factual Questions\
**Created:** [December 19, 2002, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876 "2002-12-19T20:02:40Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 15\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/1 "2002-12-19T20:02:40Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> _Genesis 1:26, NIV_  
> Then God said, “Let **us** make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [1] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Is the pluralism suggested in the above translation warranted ? That is does it occur in the original Hebrew?

If so, how is this plural identifcation explained in the Jewish community?

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**Author:** ![mrcrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@mrcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrcrow)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/2 "2002-12-19T20:09:43Z")

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the royal we:)

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**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/3 "2002-12-19T20:09:54Z")

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Is that from the King James Bible?

It’s possible that the pluralization just signifies that God is important, in a simlair way that the Queen speaks about herself in the plural (the royal ‘We’).

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**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/4 "2002-12-19T20:11:51Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> * * *
> 
> And God  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 0430 ‘elohiym {el-o-heem’}  
> plural of 0433; TWOT - 93c; n m p  
> AV - God 2346, god 244, judge 5, GOD 1, goddess 2, great 2, mighty 2,  
> angels 1, exceeding 1, God-ward + 04136 1, godly 1; 2606
> 
> 1. (plural)  
> 1a) rulers, judges  
> 1b) divine ones  
> 1c) angels  
> 1d) gods
> 2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)  
> 2a) god, goddess  
> 2b) godlike one  
> 2c) works or special possessions of God  
> 2d) the (true) God  
> 2e) God
> 
> * * *
> 
> said  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 0559 ‘amar {aw-mar’}  
> a primitive root; TWOT - 118; v  
> AV - said 4874, speak 179, answer 99, command 30, tell 29, call 7,  
> promised 6, misc. 84; 5308
> 
> 1. to say, speak, utter  
> 1a) (Qal) to say, to answer, to say in one’s heart, to think,  
> to command, to promise, to intend  
> 1b) (Niphal) to be told, to be said, to be called  
> 1c) (Hithpael) to boast, to act proudly  
> 1d) (Hiphil) to avow, to avouch
> 
> ## Old Testament Hebrew Definition: 08799 Stem - Qal See 08851 Mood - Imperfect See 08811 Count - 19885
> 
> Let us make  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 06213 `asah {aw-saw’}  
> a primitive root; TWOT - 1708,1709; v  
> AV - do 1333, make 653, wrought 52, deal 52, commit 49, offer 49,  
> execute 48, keep 48, shew 43, prepare 37, work 29, do so 21,  
> perform 18, get 14, dress 13, maker 13, maintain 7, misc 154; 2633
> 
> 1. to do, fashion, accomplish, make  
> 1a) (Qal)  
> 1a1) to do, work, make, produce  
> 1a1a) to do  
> 1a1b) to work  
> 1a1c) to deal (with)  
> 1a1d) to act, act with effect, effect  
> 1a2) to make  
> 1a2a) to make  
> 1a2b) to produce  
> 1a2c) to prepare  
> 1a2d) to make (an offering)  
> 1a2e) to attend to, put in order  
> 1a2f) to observe, celebrate  
> 1a2g) to acquire (property)  
> 1a2h) to appoint, ordain, institute  
> 1a2i) to bring about  
> 1a2j) to use  
> 1a2k) to spend, pass  
> 1b) (Niphal)  
> 1b1) to be done  
> 1b2) to be made  
> 1b3) to be produced  
> 1b4) to be offered  
> 1b5) to be observed  
> 1b6) to be used  
> 1c) (Pual) to be made
> 2. (Piel) to press, squeeze
> 
> ## Old Testament Hebrew Definition: 08799 Stem - Qal See 08851 Mood - Imperfect See 08811 Count - 19885
> 
> man  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 0120 ‘adam {aw-dawm’}  
> from 0119; TWOT - 25a; n m  
> AV - man 408, men 121, Adam 13, person(s) 8, common sort + 07230 1,  
> hypocrite 1; 552
> 
> 1. man, mankind  
> 1a) man, human being  
> 1b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT)  
> 1c) Adam, first man  
> 1d) city in Jordan valley
> 
> * * *
> 
> in our image  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 06754 tselem {tseh’-lem}  
> from an unused root meaning to shade; TWOT - 1923a; n m  
> AV - image 16, vain shew 1; 17
> 
> 1. image  
> 1a) images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)  
> 1b) image, likeness (of resemblance)  
> 1c) mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)
> 
> * * *
> 
> after our likeness  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 01823 d@muwth {dem-ooth’}  
> from 01819; TWOT - 437a  
> AV - likeness 19, similitude 2, like 2, manner 1, fashion 1; 25  
> n f
> 
> 1. likeness, similitude  
> adv
> 2. in the likeness of, like as
> 
> * * *
> 
> and let them have dominion  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 07287 radah {raw-daw’}  
> a primitive root; TWOT - 2121,2122; v  
> AV - rule 13, dominion 9, take 2, prevaileth 1, reign 1, ruler 1; 27
> 
> 1. to rule, have dominion, dominate, tread down  
> 1a) (Qal) to have dominion, rule, subjugate  
> 1b) (Hiphil) to cause to dominate
> 2. to scrape out  
> 2a) (Qal) to scrape, scrape out
> 
> ## Old Testament Hebrew Definition: 08799 Stem - Qal See 08851 Mood - Imperfect See 08811 Count - 19885
> 
> over the fish  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 01710 dagah {daw-gaw’}  
> from 01709; TWOT - 401b; n f  
> AV - fish 15; 15
> 
> 1. fish
> 
> * * *
> 
> of the sea  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 03220 yam {yawm}  
> from an unused root meaning to roar; TWOT - 871a; n m  
> AV - sea 321, west 47, westward 21, west side 4, seafaring men 1,  
> south 1, western 1; 396
> 
> 1. sea  
> 1a) Mediterranean Sea  
> 1b) Red Sea  
> 1c) Dead Sea  
> 1d) Sea of Galilee  
> 1e) sea (general)  
> 1f) mighty river (Nile)  
> 1g) the sea (the great basin in the temple court)  
> 1h) seaward, west, westward
> 
> * * *
> 
> and over the fowl  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 05775 `owph {ofe}  
> from 05774; TWOT - 1582a; n m  
> AV - fowl 59, bird 9, flying 2, flieth 1; 71
> 
> 1. flying creatures, fowl, insects, birds  
> 1a) fowl, birds  
> 1b) winged insects
> 
> * * *
> 
> of the air  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 08064 shamayim {shaw-mah’-yim} dual of an unused singular shameh  
> {shaw-meh’}  
> from an unused root meaning to be lofty; TWOT - 2407a; n m  
> AV - heaven 398, air 21, astrologers + 01895 1; 420
> 
> 1. heaven, heavens, sky  
> 1a) visible heavens, sky  
> 1a1) as abode of the stars  
> 1a2) as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc  
> 1b) Heaven (as the abode of God)
> 
> * * *
> 
> and over the cattle  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 0929 b@hemah {be-hay-maw’}  
> from an unused root (probably meaning to be mute); TWOT - 208a; n f  
> AV - beast 136, cattle 53; 189
> 
> 1. beast, cattle, animal  
> 1a) beasts (coll of all animals)  
> 1b) cattle, livestock (of domestic animals)  
> 1c) wild beasts
> 
> * * *
> 
> and over all the earth  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 0776 ‘erets {eh’-rets}  
> from an unused root probably meaning to be firm; TWOT - 167; n f  
> AV - land 1543, earth 712, country 140, ground 98, world 4, way 3,  
> common 1, field 1, nations 1, wilderness + 04057 1; 2504
> 
> 1. land, earth  
> 1a) earth  
> 1a1) whole earth (as opposed to a part)  
> 1a2) earth (as opposed to heaven)  
> 1a3) earth (inhabitants)  
> 1b) land  
> 1b1) country, territory  
> 1b2) district, region  
> 1b3) tribal territory  
> 1b4) piece of ground  
> 1b5) land of Canaan, Israel  
> 1b6) inhabitants of land  
> 1b7) Sheol, land without return, (under) world  
> 1b8) city (-state)  
> 1c) ground, surface of the earth  
> 1c1) ground  
> 1c2) soil  
> 1d) (in phrases)  
> 1d1) people of the land  
> 1d2) space or distance of country (in measurements of distance)  
> 1d3) level or plain country  
> 1d4) land of the living  
> 1d5) end(s) of the earth  
> 1e) (almost wholly late in usage)  
> 1e1) lands, countries  
> 1e1a) often in contrast to Canaan
> 
> * * *
> 
> and over every creeping thing  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 07431 remes {reh’-mes}  
> from 07430; TWOT - 2177a; n m coll  
> AV - creeping thing 15, moving thing 1, that creepeth 1; 17
> 
> 1. creeping things, moving things, creeping organism  
> 1a) creeping things  
> 1b) gliding things (of sea animals)  
> 1c) moving things (of all animals)
> 
> * * *
> 
> that creepeth  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 07430 ramas {raw-mas’}  
> a primitive root; TWOT - 2177; v  
> AV - creep 11, move 6; 17
> 
> 1. to creep, move lightly, move about, walk on all fours  
> 1a) (Qal)  
> 1a1) to creep, teem (of all creeping things)  
> 1a2) to creep (of animals)  
> 1a3) to move lightly, glide about (of water animals)  
> 1a4) to move about (of all land animals generally)
> 
> ## Old Testament Hebrew Definition: 08802 Stem - Qal See 08851 Mood - Participle Active See 08814 Count - 5386
> 
> upon the earth  
> Old Testament Hebrew Definition:  
> 0776 ‘erets {eh’-rets}  
> from an unused root probably meaning to be firm; TWOT - 167; n f  
> AV - land 1543, earth 712, country 140, ground 98, world 4, way 3,  
> common 1, field 1, nations 1, wilderness + 04057 1; 2504
> 
> 1. land, earth  
> 1a) earth  
> 1a1) whole earth (as opposed to a part)  
> 1a2) earth (as opposed to heaven)  
> 1a3) earth (inhabitants)  
> 1b) land  
> 1b1) country, territory  
> 1b2) district, region  
> 1b3) tribal territory  
> 1b4) piece of ground  
> 1b5) land of Canaan, Israel  
> 1b6) inhabitants of land  
> 1b7) Sheol, land without return, (under) world  
> 1b8) city (-state)  
> 1c) ground, surface of the earth  
> 1c1) ground  
> 1c2) soil  
> 1d) (in phrases)  
> 1d1) people of the land  
> 1d2) space or distance of country (in measurements of distance)  
> 1d3) level or plain country  
> 1d4) land of the living  
> 1d5) end(s) of the earth  
> 1e) (almost wholly late in usage)  
> 1e1) lands, countries  
> 1e1a) often in contrast to Canaan

From this website. I’m not a Hebrew expert, so I can’t attest to its accuracy, but I’ve found it pretty much agrees with other translation issues that Hebrew linguists on this board assert.

[http://inthebeginning.net/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm](http://inthebeginning.net/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm)

(I hope this is not abuse of the “fair use” rules. If so, and it gets clipped, I understand.)

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**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/5 "2002-12-19T20:37:11Z")

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In Bereshit (Bereishis; Genesis), there are strands called “P,” “J,” “E” and one other I’m not remembering (“JE”?). The “E” strand uses _Elohim_ as the name of God.

The word “Elohim” is a grammatical plural, hence the proper possessive is “our.” But in 1:27, there’s “So God created man in His image,” which again uses “Elohim.” So **zev\_steinhart** or others, why does my Artscroll Tanach render “Elohim” plural in the first instance and singular in the second?

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**Author:** ![rampisad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@rampisad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rampisad)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/6 "2002-12-19T20:44:12Z")

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The translation is accurate, since the words B’tzalmeinu B’Kidmoteinu (in OUR image, after OUR likeness) are both in the plural.

There are several explanations brought forward by the commentators. The most common is that G-d was speaking to the ministering angels, who were created on the second day. A _Midrash_ does explain that one who seeks the truth will see it, and that one who is looking for an excuse to blaspheme (by implying that G-d is not One) will do so anyway.

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**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/7 "2002-12-19T20:47:21Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Shoshana \*  
> \*\*So **zev\_steinhart** or others, why does my Artscroll Tanach render “Elohim” plural in the first instance and singular in the second? \*\*

Because the verb used in 1:27, _vi-yivra_ is singular. The plural (they made) is _vi-yiv’r’u_.

The verb used in 1:26 _na’aseh_ is future tense plural (we). Future tense singular would have been _e’e’seh_.

Zev Steinhardt

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**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/8 "2002-12-19T20:55:59Z")

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Have we forgotten the 3 persons in one God thing…?

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**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/9 "2002-12-19T20:56:09Z")

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Thanks. My contemporary Hebrew is much better than my biblical Hebrew (which isn’t saying a lot).

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**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/10 "2002-12-19T20:59:28Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \*  
> \*\*Have we forgotten the 3 persons in one God thing…? \*\*

Except that the OP asked about it from the Jewish POV. Since we don’t hold of the 3-in-one God concept, no one brought it up.

Zev Steinhardt

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**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/11 "2002-12-19T21:00:43Z")

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From a purely linguistic standpoint, it is worth noting that in Biblical Hebrew words indicating ownership or mastery tend to be rendered as plural, even if they refer to a singular entity. So that the owner of an ox is referred to as _ba’alav_ (his owners), and the master of a slave is referred to as _adonav_ (his masters). Those names of God that refer to lordship aspects are plural, those that refer to other attributes are singular.

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**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\
**Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/12 "2002-12-20T00:30:39Z")

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Okay. I see. I think. The pluralism is entirely justified in a literal sense given the ancient Hebrew.

I’ve received two explanations for the pluralism. **rampisad’s** claim for angels created on the second day is not supported by my copy of Genesis, and the “our image” expression would suggest that the angels were made in the image of God as well.

**IzzyR’s** post is very interesting. Could **IzzyR** or any other Hebrew scholar/student support his claim for the ancient rendering style of pluralizing to suggest mastery rather than to suggest just numbers greater than one?

And given **IzzyR’s** explanation, are vernacular translations of the Torah corrected towards a singular concept of God ?

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**Author:** ![PolskiKing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a5b964/32.png) [@PolskiKing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PolskiKing)\
**Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/13 "2002-12-20T00:50:02Z")

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mrcrow, i believe you mean the eclesiastical we

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**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\
**Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/14 "2002-12-20T01:12:22Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by grienspace \*  
> \*\*  
> **IzzyR’s** post is very interesting. Could **IzzyR** or any other Hebrew scholar/student support his claim for the ancient rendering style of pluralizing to suggest mastery rather than to suggest just numbers greater than one?  
> \*\*

_adonuv_ - Used in Exodus 21:4. Clearly singular.  
_b’alav_ - Used in Exodus 22:13.

Zev Steinhardt

* * *

Fixed the italics-- CKDH

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**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\
**Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torah-torah-torah/143876/15 "2002-12-20T03:55:30Z")

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It’s been a really long time since I read it, but for a dissenting viewpoint or two you might want to check out Isaac Asimov’s \*In The Beginning. \* I recall much discussion in the book about linguistic inconsistencies and such in the Torah, which Asimov posited were related to Babylonian and Sumerian mythologies. (He didn’t only write sci-fi, you now.)