# Torching SUVs? What the...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2003, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741 "2003-01-05T06:41:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/1 "2003-01-05T06:41:25Z")
Apparently there is a group called the [Earth Liberation Front](http://www.earthliberationfront.com/main.shtml) that is targeting things they feel hurt the environment. The latest stunt is [torching new SUVs at a car dealership](http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20030104_1079.html). Question: What good will it do? They claim it will “…remove the profit motive from the killing of the natural environment.” With insurance covering the loss of four vehicles, how is this “removing the proft motive”? And a lighter question: (obligatory Monty Python reference) Is this really the Earth Liberation Front or the Liberation Front of the Earth? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![superfreakicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@superfreakicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/superfreakicus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/2 "2003-01-05T07:18:49Z")
splitter! ---
**Author:** ![superfreakicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@superfreakicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/superfreakicus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/3 "2003-01-05T07:25:21Z")
ps — to answer your question… they’re just a bunch of jackasses. they have a sister organization called the animal lib. front (or possibly, the popular animal’s front of judea — can’t remember) I believe both organizations are considered domestic terrorist groups. I don’t know why you pay any attention to peoples’ stated motivations — if you want to divine the motivations of some people, you need a shrink. ---
**Author:** ![kgriffey79](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@kgriffey79](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kgriffey79)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/4 "2003-01-05T08:08:27Z")
[http://www.taemag.com/hotflash020215.htm](http://www.taemag.com/hotflash020215.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/5 "2003-01-05T08:41:12Z")
So… I take it you disapprove of their actions? This could actually be an interesting thread. There are a few interesting questions here: 1. Do you believe that the Earth is worth defending? 2. If so, what tactics are acceptable? My answers would be: 1. Yes. Obviously. 2. The worthiness of an action is determined by its _effectiveness_. If torching SUV’s actually does have the effect of removing the profit motive from producing more SUV’s, then I would support such actions. The continuing degradation of the ecosystem will not stop until the capitalist order is smashed and a more humane, sustainable system put in its place. Any environmental movement that does not work toward this goal is simply delaying the inevitable. Organizations like Greenpeace, in my opinion, do not help the environment in the long-term, since they simply provide window dressing for the capitalist order by blunting some of its more rough edges. They simply delay the inevitable. Only an uncompomising hostility toward capitalism and its destructive effects can have any long-lasting effect on the viability of life on Earth. From this point of view, I would say that the ELF, and more moderate organizations like Earth First! have the right approach, but that without a holistic theory of capitalism and revolution, they are spinning their wheels. They may, along with Greenpeace, help to delay the inevitable, but only a throwing off of the old order will save the Earth and ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/6 "2003-01-05T11:24:06Z")
_cough_ Chernobyl _cough_ ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/7 "2003-01-05T14:51:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\* > 2) The worthiness of an action is determined by its _effectiveness_. If torching SUV’s actually does have the effect of removing the profit motive from producing more SUV’s, then I would support such actions. The continuing degradation of the ecosystem will not stop until the capitalist order is smashed and a more humane, sustainable system put in its place. Any environmental movement that does not work toward this goal is simply delaying the inevitable. Organizations like Greenpeace, in my opinion, do not help the environment in the long-term, since they simply provide window dressing for the capitalist order by blunting some of its more rough edges. They simply delay the inevitable. Only an uncompomising hostility toward capitalism and its destructive effects can have any long-lasting effect on the viability of life on Earth. > > From this point of view, I would say that the ELF, and more moderate organizations like Earth First! have the right approach, but that without a holistic theory of capitalism and revolution, they are spinning their wheels. They may, along with Greenpeace, help to delay the inevitable, but only a throwing off of the old order will save the Earth and ourselves. \*\* Uff da, so the ends justify the means? Well, since the U.S. doesn’t want another rogue nuclear state like North Korea, it’d be easier just to threaten war with them than to have investigation to verify its own claims. Woudn’t it? Maybe to get their point across, the ELF should get a sharp shooter and go after William Clay Ford, Robert J Eaton, John Smith and all of the automobile CEOs just to get their attention that the SUVs are ruining the earth. Sure it’s a small loss but I think they could make their point that way. :rolleyes: To condone violence when there are other sensible options out there is just sliding down the slippery slope. What good will torching the SUVs do? Not much, it doesn’t give credence that the ELF is a sane, rational organization (IMO). What they did was very dangerous and had the propensity to affect more than just the SUVs, it could’ve hurt/maimed/killed innocent passersby as well as fire fighters. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/8 "2003-01-05T17:38:05Z")
Jeez, I don’t know, the setting ablaze of vehicles containing large amounts of rubber and plastics hardly seems like “defending the earth”. > [@](#): > > The continuing degradation of the ecosystem will not stop until the capitalist order is smashed and a more humane, sustainable system put in its place. In todays headlines: **Chumpsky** renounces capitalism, joins old order Amish. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/9 "2003-01-05T18:21:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > 2) The worthiness of an action is determined by its effectiveness._\* But here’s the most interesting part: torching SUVs is perfectly ineffective. The dealer will hire some security guards; the people who buy SUVs will think that ELF is a bunch of nuts, and tar all environmentalists as part of the same silly, radical front; as a domestic terrorist organization, ELF is prevented from doing anything but domestic terror because they can’t act as a public organization. So, given that burning down SUVs and ski lodges is pragmaticallly ineffective, what good was their action? ---
**Author:** ![HomeSlice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9d8465/32.png) [@HomeSlice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HomeSlice)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/10 "2003-01-05T18:23:04Z")
My SUV gets 14 mpg. And i don’t have a catalytic converter. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/11 "2003-01-05T18:37:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HomeSlice \* > My SUV gets 14 mpg. > > And i don’t have a catalytic converter. I understand neither people who destroy other people’s property for the sake of making a point about environmental destruction, nor people who brag about how much environmental destruction their lifestyle chooses are causing. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/12 "2003-01-05T19:31:37Z")
> [@](#): > > The Earth Liberation Front is an international underground movement consisting of autonomous groups of people who carry out direct action according to the E.L.F. guidelines. Since 1997, E.L.F. cells have carried out dozens of actions resulting in over $30 million in damages. > > Modeled after the Animal Liberation Front, the E.L.F. is structured in such a way as to to maximize effectiveness. By operating in cells (small groups that consist of one to several people), the security of group members is maintained. Each cell is anonymous not only to the public but also to one another. This decentralized structure helps keep activists out of jail and free to continue conducting actions. Source: [http://www.earthliberationfront.com/about/](http://www.earthliberationfront.com/about/) The ELF [even gloats in their activities](http://www.earthliberationfront.com/doa/) such as > [@](#): > > The laboratory was set ablaze during the early morning hours, causing over $700,000 damage, **and destroying part of 70 years worth of research**. This lesson in “prescribed fire” was a natural, necessary response to the threats posed to life in the Allegheny Forest by proposed timber sales, oil drilling, and greed driven manipulation of Nature. Source: [http://www.earthliberationfront.com/news/2002/090302.shtml](http://www.earthliberationfront.com/news/2002/090302.shtml) Gee, perhaps if ELF had existed 40 years ago, they might have destroyed the forest research facilities looking into taxol derived from Pacific Northwest Yew trees. If so, several million women who are alive today would probably be dead. ---
**Author:** ![superfreakicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@superfreakicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/superfreakicus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/13 "2003-01-05T20:56:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*So… I take it you disapprove of their actions? This could actually be an interesting thread. There are a few interesting questions here: > > 1. Do you believe that the Earth is worth defending? > > 2. If so, what tactics are acceptable? > > My answers would be: > > 1. Yes. Obviously. > > 2. The worthiness of an action is determined by its _effectiveness_. If torching SUV’s actually does have the effect of removing the profit motive from producing more SUV’s, then I would support such actions. The continuing degradation of the ecosystem will not stop until the capitalist order is smashed and a more humane, sustainable system put in its place. Any environmental movement that does not work toward this goal is simply delaying the inevitable. Organizations like Greenpeace, in my opinion, do not help the environment in the long-term, since they simply provide window dressing for the capitalist order by blunting some of its more rough edges. They simply delay the inevitable. Only an uncompomising hostility toward capitalism and its destructive effects can have any long-lasting effect on the viability of life on Earth. > > From this point of view, I would say that the ELF, and more moderate organizations like Earth First! have the right approach, but that without a holistic theory of capitalism and revolution, they are spinning their wheels. They may, along with Greenpeace, help to delay the inevitable, but only a throwing off of the old order will save the Earth and ourselves. \*\* trying to rationalize that kind of violent behavior w/any kind of motivation other than ‘serious anger issues’, or ‘fucked up childhood’, is moronic. suv’s are covered by insurance. insurance company pays. more suv’s are ordered as replacements. the demand for suv’s goes up. not only do these assholes have no rational motivation (psychosis is not a rational motivation), they don’t even have common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/14 "2003-01-05T21:14:54Z")
> [@](#): > > I believe both organizations are considered domestic terrorist groups. I would hesitate to label them “terrorists.” A true terrorist inspires, well, \* terror \* in a large population of people. The E.L.F might have caused monetary damages, but, as yet, have not caused physical harm to people. Torching a ski lodge and a few S.U.Vs should be classified as arson, or vandalism, not terrorism. To use the term puts them on par with Al Quaeda, or Islamic Jihaad. Bombing an occupied buidling, causing mass casualties and making people afraid to leave their homes or travel is terrorism. Whether or not you agree with their tactics, they’re not terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/15 "2003-01-05T21:25:15Z")
I’d call them terrorist wannabes. They certainly see violence and destruction as valid tactic, and I’m sure it gets them all sexually excited to act out their rebel fantasies in a manner which is safe to them, i.e. minimal risk of arrest or being blown away by a annoyed property-owner. Get these froot loops in jail before they try to “out-radical” each other and somebody gets killed. ---
**Author:** ![superfreakicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@superfreakicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/superfreakicus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/16 "2003-01-05T21:46:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\*I would hesitate to label them “terrorists.” A true terrorist inspires, well, \* terror \* in a large population of people. The E.L.F might have caused monetary damages, but, as yet, have not caused physical harm to people. Torching a ski lodge and a few S.U.Vs should be classified as arson, or vandalism, not terrorism. > > To use the term puts them on par with Al Quaeda, or Islamic Jihaad. Bombing an occupied buidling, causing mass casualties and making people afraid to leave their homes or travel is terrorism. Whether or not you agree with their tactics, they’re not terrorists. \*\* well, no doubt you are simply more courageous than the common folk. I would think that if your car were set fire to, your building covered in red paint, and numerous slogans scrawled on your property, you might be a little apprehensive the next day. the only difference between this garbage and the klan is that they haven’t lynched anyone (yet). ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/17 "2003-01-05T22:25:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > I’d call them terrorist wannabes. Well, I haven’t heard many terrorists or terrorist-wannabees explain how they try to take their actions with precautions to try to insure there are no deaths or injuries. That is hardly a recipe for inciting terror. Of course, this isn’t a justification for the property destruction they are causing nor a claim that they will continue to be successful in avoiding killing anyone when they are committing these dangerous and destructive acts. Still, let’s keep things in perspective and use the word “terrorists” to refer to people who want to instill terror…in particular fear for life or limb…in other people. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/18 "2003-01-05T22:38:45Z")
I’m not willing to cut them that much slack. They see destruction as a valid alternative to petition and the vote and are trying to modify the behaviour of others through crime. Admittedly, that puts them in a pretty mild light compared to Osama bin Laden, and I hesitate to call them terrorists outright since it gives them more weight than they deserve. “Wannabes” conveys just the right amount of ridicule and distaste. ---
**Author:** ![keira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@keira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keira)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/19 "2003-01-05T22:40:13Z")
I believe that environmental activism can be a good thing, provided that it’s effective. Torching SUVs is not effective. I have noticed that when activists break the law, they tend to get labeled terrorists, but I believe there is a big difference between destroying property and killing people/threatening to kill people. Destroying property isn’t terrorism. It is, however, still ineffective. I prefer the performance art, huge street puppets, etc… ---
**Author:** ![keira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@keira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keira)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741/20 "2003-01-05T22:43:51Z")
And I apologize for the double post, but does anyone remember the BLO-- Barbie Liberation Organization? They (illegally) managed to switch the voice boxes on a bunch of Barbies and GI Joes, so you had the testerone puppets moaning about math being hard, and Barbie growling “Let’s kill 'em!” (or whatever violent war cry Joe was supposed to say). It was illegal. It damaged property. They were trying to make a point/modify behavior through crime. Were they terrorists? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torching-suvs-what-the/146741.md?page=2)