# Torino? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 4, 2006, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958 "2006-02-04T04:20:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/21 "2006-02-04T22:07:16Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > So sorry, but I must – how do they francisize Saskatchewan? (An easier word to type than “francisize,” oddly enough.) Saskatchewan is the same in French as in English. Some Canadian provinces do get changed, though; the Latin “Nova Scotia” becomes “Nouvelle-Ecosse,” British Columbia is “Colmbie Britannique,” etc. Indian names - Ontario, Quebec, Saskatchewan, etc. - stay the same; European names change, except for Alberta. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/22 "2006-02-04T22:44:43Z")
Until this thread, I had no idea that Turin and Torino were the same place. Man, I’m dumb. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/23 "2006-02-04T22:57:55Z")
> [@An Arky](#): > > I’m not talking about pronounciation, I’m talking about making up a whole other word to call a city. You’re not talking about a made-up word. You’re talking about a word which has existed for centuries. All major Italian cities aquired anglophile names. (My Torino cousin calls it Turin when he’s talking in English - do I need better evidence than that?!) ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/24 "2006-02-05T01:40:55Z")
Anglicization is making up a word. All words are made up. They don’t dig them up from the earth’s crust. [/nitpick] I was wrong to call it arrogant, and for that I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/25 "2006-02-05T01:53:43Z")
I’ve never in my life heard apart from the car we had in America in the early '70s. Until this thread, I thought it was Spanish, and something to do with bulls. I understand the problems with transliterating stuff like “Beijing”, but when you’ve got a perfectly pronouncable word like “Turin”, it seems a little strange to alter it to an archaic form - especially since the majority of the target audience will almost certainly have never heard of it in the first place. **Jjimmus** , Oxonia ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/26 "2006-02-05T01:54:25Z")
> [@An Arky](#): > > I’m not talking about pronounciation, I’m talking about making up a whole other word to call a city. Why should the other city tell us how to say a word in English? That’s arrogant, too. In English, we say “cow,” when the French call it “vache.” Is it arrogant not to say “vache” when referring to a French cow? We’re making up a whole other word to call a vache! Should we only refer to Russian cities in the Cyrillic alphabet? Is it arrogant to put them into roman letters? Is it arrogant to call the capital of France, “Paris,” when residents call it “Paree?” ---
**Author:** ![633squadron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/ee59a6/32.png) [@633squadron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/633squadron)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/27 "2006-02-05T02:03:06Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Why should the other city tell us how to say a word in English? That’s arrogant, too. I dunno about arrogant, but to me Torino sounds a lot nicer than Turin. I just happen to like the Italian language, is all. Same with Firenza versus Florence or Milano versus Milan. What I notice is that, in English, none of the French city names changed! Paris is Paris, Carcasonne is Carcasonne, Toulon is Toulon, Marseilles is Marseilles, and Val-Thorens is Val-Thorens. Even Caen is Caen and Cannes is Nice er Cannes (old joke). I’m guessing that this is the Norman/French influence on English going back to William the (bloody) Bastard/Conqueror’s holiday trip across the Channel. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![from\_a\_to\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5fc32e/32.png) [@from\_a\_to\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/from_a_to_z)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/28 "2006-02-05T03:10:25Z")
> [@633squadron](#): > > …Marseilles is Marseilles… Or [Marseille](http://www.tourisme.fr/carte/carte-region-provence-alpes-du-sud.htm). Tourists could be more welcome than conquerers to use the exonym. And people outside the USA could wonder why “America” is the endonym. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/29 "2006-02-05T03:30:01Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > I’ve never in my life heard apart from the car we had in America in the early '70s. Until this thread, I thought it was Spanish, and something to do with bulls. My Italian is pretty week, but “torino” sounds to me like it would translate as “little bull”. I don’t know if that is an accident or actually has some significance for the city. But isn’t it more the norm in Europe for older towns to have had their names modified many times over the years? And Italy is famous for having dozens of regional dialects. Maybe “Turin” was an acceptable form of the town’s name in some dialect at some time and that is where English picked up the word. It’s pretty common in Romance languages to mix “o” and “u”, or to drop or modify vowel endings. I can easly see Turin and Torino as being simple variations of the same name. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/30 "2006-02-05T03:35:08Z")
In fact… “Turin” sounds suspiciously French to me (o -\> u, drop the vowel ending). I bet we got it from the French, and considering how close Torino is to France, this would make sense. Any French speakers available for comment? ---
**Author:** ![pace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c2a13f/32.png) [@pace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/31 "2006-02-05T03:49:47Z")
> [@633squadron](#): > > I but to me Torino sounds a lot nicer than Turin. I just happen to like the Italian language, is all. Same with Firenza versus Florence or Milano versus Milan. Torino does sound lotz nicer than “Turin” (english)… like others, I believe the Italian language is the most beautiful sounding language on the planet 🙂 Bella Italia! con tutto il mio cuore, Pace ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/32 "2006-02-05T04:03:50Z")
I guess I’m in the minority. “Turin” sounds very… masculine to me. In all of the positive sense of the word, if that makes sense. It sounds like a medieval nation, and I like that ring. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/33 "2006-02-05T05:45:42Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Saskatchewan is the same in French as in English. Some Canadian provinces do get changed, though; the Latin “Nova Scotia” becomes “Nouvelle-Ecosse,” British Columbia is “Colmbie Britannique,” etc. Indian names - Ontario, Quebec, Saskatchewan, etc. - stay the same; European names change, except for Alberta. They also have definite articles and genders they don’t have in English. _La Colombie-Britannique, l’Alberta, la Saskatchewan, la Nouvelle-Écosse,_ and _l’Île-du-Prince-Édouard_ are all feminine, as is _Terre-Neuve-et-Labrador_, though it doesn’t have an article for arcane reasons I won’t get into. _Le Yukon, le Nunavut, le Manitoba, l’Ontario, le Québec,_ and _le Nouveau-Brunswick_ are all masculine; _les Territoires du Nord-Ouest_ is masculine plural. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/34 "2006-02-05T05:47:58Z")
I should make clear that French does the same for most other countries and regions around the world (_le Nouveau-Mexique, la Pennsylvanie_), as does Italian (_la Nuova Scozia_). ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/35 "2006-02-05T05:50:51Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > My Italian is pretty week, but “torino” sounds to me like it would translate as “little bull”. I don’t know if that is an accident or actually has some significance for the city. Quoth [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin): > [@](#): > > The name of Turin comes from Tau, a Celtic word that means mountains. The Italian name, Torino, happens to mean “little bull” in Italian, hence the coat of arms and the symbol of the city. The area was settled by the Taurini in pre-Roman times. In the first century B.C. (probably 28 B.C.), the Romans created a military camp (Castra Taurinorum), later dedicated to Augustus (Augusta Taurinorum). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/36 "2006-02-05T05:58:21Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Quoth [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin): Interesting. But that article doesn’t make it clear if the “little bull” meaning is accidental or not. Tau -\> Taurini from a Celtic language. Does “Tau” have the meaning of “bull” in any Celtic languages? Beats me. Hey, if you look up that page in [French on Wiki](http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin), the city’s name is “Turin”. I think I was right about English getting it from French. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/37 "2006-02-05T20:22:57Z")
> [@633squadron](#): > > I dunno about arrogant, but to me Torino sounds a lot nicer than Turin. I just happen to like the Italian language, is all. Same with Firenza versus Florence or Milano versus Milan. > > What I notice is that, in English, none of the French city names changed! Paris is Paris, Carcasonne is Carcasonne, Toulon is Toulon, Marseilles is Marseilles, and Val-Thorens is Val-Thorens. Even Caen is Caen and Cannes is Nice er Cannes (old joke). > > I’m guessing that this is the Norman/French influence on English going back to William the (bloody) Bastard/Conqueror’s holiday trip across the Channel. > > 😃 Of course the English don’t change the names of French cities. Where do you think we got all the wacky names we have for Italian cities? From French, of course. And it’s not as though the French just made up names for those cities; the original Roman names got altered by linguistic change to yield their modern Italian forms, and likewise they changed over history among French speakers to yield their modern French forms. They’re both the results of predictable phonological changes in modern Romance languages. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/38 "2006-02-05T21:09:59Z")
> [@Wikipedia](#): > > The name of Turin comes from Tau, a Celtic word that means mountains. (I didn’t want to blame **matt\_mcl** for Wikipedia’s incorrect information) No it doesn’t. In fact, the tribe (Taurini) & thus Turin do in fact come from the “bull” word, according to Delamarre’s _Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise_. The Gaulish word for bull was _taruos_ (compare Irish _tarbh_, Welsh _tarw_). Latin speakers tended to modify the Gaulish to match their own word, _taurus_. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/39 "2006-02-05T21:37:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Saskatchewan is the same in French as in English. Some Canadian provinces do get changed, though; the Latin “Nova Scotia” becomes “Nouvelle-Ecosse,” British Columbia is “Colmbie Britannique,” etc. Indian names - Ontario, Quebec, Saskatchewan, etc. - stay the same; European names change, except for Alberta. Interesting that Indian names for _provinces_ stay the same, but not for some other things like major rivers. Isn’t the French Canadian spelling for the Ottawa River some abomination along the lines of _Ouatouais_ ? (I’m kidding when I say “abomination”. They’re both just transliterations of an (originally) unwritten language.) ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958/40 "2006-02-05T22:41:49Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Interesting that Indian names for _provinces_ stay the same, but not for some other things like major rivers. Isn’t the French Canadian spelling for the Ottawa River some abomination along the lines of _Ouatouais_ ? Outaouais. And the river is actually called “rivière des Outaouais”, in the plural form. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torino/342958.md?page=3)