# Tornado Shelters at the schools aren't practical. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 21, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954 "2013-05-21T19:24:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/41 "2013-05-24T03:16:21Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > The National Weather Service does send alerts to cell phones over the [Wireless Emergency Alert](http://www.nws.noaa.gov/com/weatherreadynation/wea.html) system, but it only works with newer phones and only with carriers that participate in the program. Right, but as the link says, that is a county-based alert system. That’s way too large to be useful. They mention trying to get it to smaller segments, but I don’t think they’re actually there yet. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/42 "2013-05-24T03:17:58Z")
i think that is what happened. the kids could go if a car picked them up. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/43 "2013-05-24T06:04:41Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > I agree with everything the OP posted. > > Sometimes shit happens. you can’t protect against everything. This was a tornado **2 miles wide**. That’s… crazy. Planning for a tornado like that is like reinforcing your roof to protect from meteors. It’s just so statistically unlikely, it isn’t a good use of funds. > > Although, if climate change starts makes these super tornadoes a regular occurrence, I could change my tune. I don’t know where they get this but that tornado was not TWO MILES WIDE. Not that the end that was touching the ground. Does anyone know where they get that figure? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/44 "2013-05-24T06:50:13Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > That’s the thing I think some of the commentators I’ve been reading on other websites don’t get: an EF5 tornado is a black swan event. It’s devastating if you’re hit by one - but the odds are that even if you live on the Great Plains all your life you’ll never experience even one tornado, much less an EF5. So how much should we spend to prepare for rare-but-devastating events? What’s the point which best balances the opposing concerns of cost and safety? And since everyone has differing levels of tolerance for risk, reaching a consensus of what ought to be legally required and what ought to be optional isn’t easy. Yes but risk is the combination of probability and outcome. It’s more rare that a tornado will hit me than say getting a splinter, but the outcome of the splinter is minimal. The outcome of a tornado has a much higher mortality rate. I live in an area that’s seen probably a couple of dozen tornadoes in the last 50 years. One of them removed everything in it’s path. It just makes sense to incorporate safe rooms in buildings. It’s not a financial deal breaker to do so. All a school needs is a reinforced hallway. And since there seems to be some kind of unwritten law that any school building over 50 years old is evil it’s just a matter of time before new ones are built. They’ve literally replaced every school building in the city I grew up in and they’re doing it in the city I live in now. Bring forth the rebar and let there be concrete. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/45 "2013-05-24T12:46:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes but risk is the combination of probability and outcome. It’s more rare that a tornado will hit me than say getting a splinter, but the outcome of the splinter is minimal. The outcome of a tornado has a much higher mortality rate. True, but what prompted this thread was the comments of many people on (mostly other) websites who seem to have no idea of cost-benefit analysis. “Spend whatever it takes!” sounds great on paper, but in practice cost MUST be taken into account. > [@](#): > > I live in an area that’s seen probably a couple of dozen tornadoes in the last 50 years. One of them removed everything in it’s path. It just makes sense to incorporate safe rooms in buildings. It’s not a financial deal breaker to do so. I agree, as long as it’s done at the time of construction. Retrofitting can be cost-prohibitive (if it can even be done at all). > [@](#): > > All a school needs is a reinforced hallway. Not according to some people; they want nothing less than fully-underground reinforced bunkers (in a region where the soil structure makes building such structures tricky). > [@](#): > > And since there seems to be some kind of unwritten law that any school building over 50 years old is evil it’s just a matter of time before new ones are built. They’ve literally replaced every school building in the city I grew up in and they’re doing it in the city I live in now. Bring forth the rebar and let there be concrete. Yep, that’s the way to do it! Retrofit old buildings as best we can, write building codes to mandate that all new construction be able to handle EF1- EF2 winds and suffer only repairable damage, and make a safe room (above ground or below ground) designed for EF 5 winds code as well. Safety and cost-effectiveness married: what’s not to like? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/46 "2013-05-24T14:45:24Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > I don’t know where they get this but that tornado was not TWO MILES WIDE. Not that the end that was touching the ground. > > Does anyone know where they get that figure? right after the storm the media was saying 1 to 2 miles wide. the weather service evaluation team said it was 1.3 miles. they examine the earth and what is or was on it and can use that evidence to give it more exact characterization. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/47 "2013-05-24T15:08:57Z")
I’m very familiar with the area. I’ve looked at the maps of the storm track. If it were that wide my sister wouldn’t have a house at all. The actual destructive part was much smaller than a mile. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/48 "2013-05-24T15:38:36Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > The actual destructive part was much smaller than a mile. Most violent tornadoes have a complex internal structure, with multiple small vortices rotating around a common central point. The small vortices have very high winds and do most of the severe damage, while the winds in the outer part of the tornado away from the small vortices are much less destructive. So that could explain how a tornado could both be very wide and have a narrow path of major destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/49 "2013-05-24T15:47:22Z")
KFOR reported that the debris ball was two miles wide and I think the media just ran with that. The “debris ball” is the radar reflection of debris swirling around a tornado. The size also fluctuated and was probably a fraction of a mile in certain places. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/50 "2013-05-24T18:26:56Z")
Re: how wide was the tornado? [Here](http://www.srh.noaa.gov/oun/?n=events-20130520) is the NWS preliminary report. You can see that the damage ranges from minimal to major. My semi-educated guess is that they get the width from the widest area of damage, not just where the funnel is. p.s. [Here](http://tmappsevents.esri.com/website/swipe_moore/) is an amazing scalable before/after graphic. ---
**Author:** ![60wag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/7ba0ec/32.png) [@60wag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/60wag)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/51 "2013-05-24T21:04:45Z")
I think that a good reason to improve the shelter provided by the schools, whether its better hallways or a full scale storm shelter, is to keep the parents from thinking they immediately have to pick up a kid when dangerous weather is imminent. If the parents believed that the kids were safer where they were, then the parents can focus on seeking their own shelter. The result is fewer people driving around when the shouldn’t be. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/52 "2013-05-25T12:01:11Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > I don’t know where they get this but that tornado was not TWO MILES WIDE. Not that the end that was touching the ground. > > Does anyone know where they get that figure? Yeah, it actually _was_ that wide at one point, based on the width of the destroyed area. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/53 "2013-05-25T12:02:19Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > I’m very familiar with the area. I’ve looked at the maps of the storm track. If it were that wide my sister wouldn’t have a house at all. > > The actual destructive part was much smaller than a mile. Where it went by your sister’s house it may not have been that wide, but tornadoes are hardly consistent in size from start to finish. The width varies over time. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/54 "2013-05-25T12:44:51Z")
The medical examiner reported that six of the children who died at Plaza Towers suffocated after being buried under a mass of bricks, steel and other materials as the building collapsed. A seventh child who died there, 8-year-old Kyle Davis, was killed instantly by an object - perhaps a large piece of stone or a beam - that fell on the back of his neck. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/55 "2013-05-25T12:45:58Z")
The seven children who died at Plaza Towers Elementary School were initially reported to have drowned because of a broken water main. Officials now say those children were asphyxiated when the building crumbled on top of them. Read more: [http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/05/22/new-info-children-who-died-school-during-tornado-did-not-drown#ixzz2UJ9lZ8fn](http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/05/22/new-info-children-who-died-school-during-tornado-did-not-drown#ixzz2UJ9lZ8fn) ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/56 "2013-05-25T14:45:15Z")
on a tv news show a person (with the Moore schools i recall) was interviewed. they said that after Sandy Hook people were wanting schools to have bullet proof exteriors with centrally controlled access, this would cost money they didn’t have to spend nor would they ever likely be provided. they have trouble getting enough money just to maintain education. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954/57 "2013-05-29T06:14:32Z")
My sister who lives in Moore but teaches in Jones caught me up with a few things. Her school had a fire several years ago. When they rebuilt, they built a tornado safe room. It’s the library. It is completely interior and has 18 inch thick concrete walls and ceiling re-enforced with re-bar. So I can be done. My sisters house did get hit by debris. (and covered with mud) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tornado-shelters-at-the-schools-arent-practical/658954.md?page=2)