# Toronto Attack - Police Arrest Suspect; Police Professionalism Appreciation Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 24, 2018, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043 "2018-04-24T14:04:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/21 "2018-04-24T17:53:52Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > These cops deserve credit for being level headed in this kind of highly charged situation. > > Not to take away from their correct actions, it wasn’t all that long ago when Toronto police officers killed a slight, mentally disturbed young man on the Spadina streetcar. He was holding a small pen knife and isolated on an empty tram. That was an uncalled for over-reaction by the police on the scene. That kid should not have been killed because he never actually hurt anybody, nor was he a serious threat to the police on the scene. Ironically, this happened a stone’s throw away from Toronto’s largest mental hospital. > > One hopes the current incident is the result of changes in training and policy subsequently instituted by the Toronto Police Department. If so, kudos to all. Yes, Sammy Yatim. Shot down in 2013. The police officer who shot him down was convicted and sentenced. It is perhaps worth noting, considering some earlier comments in the thread, that Sammy Yatim was also not Black (he was Syrian; not sure what the perp in the current case has as a background, though I’ve read his name is Armenian). To my mind, in this city at least, police over-reaction is not tied strictly to race. I doubt very much whether the cops could actually tell the difference between Syrians and Armenians. Way I’d put it, the cop in the Yatim case was a bad cop, one who for whatever reason did not react appropriately (and indeed reacted criminally), while the cop in this case was the opposite - hopefully, showing a trend, though it is hard to generalize from such isolated incidents, of course. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/22 "2018-04-24T18:07:03Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > I saw reports today where people who know the driver were shocked that he even could figure out how to drive the van, he had problems understanding how a steering wheel works. I read that too, and assume it’s hyperbole because that claim doesn’t jibe with the fact that the guy graduated from college a week ago. (And no, I’m not suggesting they have Steering 101 in their core curriculum, but, I mean— come on.) ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/23 "2018-04-24T18:51:12Z")
The officer showed great courage and restraint under considerable provocation. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/24 "2018-04-24T18:51:58Z")
I know several adults, college graduated, who dont know how to drive a car. [Here’s a famous(kinda) 63yo](https://twitter.com/realgilbert/status/947459422049140741?lang=en) mc ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/25 "2018-04-24T19:11:55Z")
I thought the same as many here - that cop did an amazing job. If this horror occurred state-side, the suspect would have been shot for sure. But, as also mentioned, the odds of anyone who just committed this crime and is carrying is pretty high in the US. I am sure there are a lot of factors that go into a cop’s decision to pull the trigger: fear, adrenaline, etc. I think one thing that could also be a factor is the perceived worth, or value, of the suspect. I look at the Boston Marathon bomber - that guy was armed, dangerous, and desperate. However, the cops in that case also showed high professionalism under pressure, and that suspect was taken alive (IMHO because of the perceived value WRT terrorism). The cases in Boston and Toronto suggest use of deadly force is not warranted as much as it seems to be employed (at least in the US). Maybe it’s the perception of value of the citizen. I don’t know the answer - maybe better training. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/26 "2018-04-24T19:47:30Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > I thought the same as many here - that cop did an amazing job. If this horror occurred state-side, the suspect would have been shot for sure. But, as also mentioned, the odds of anyone who just committed this crime and is carrying is pretty high in the US. > > I am sure there are a lot of factors that go into a cop’s decision to pull the trigger: fear, adrenaline, etc. I think one thing that could also be a factor is the perceived worth, or value, of the suspect. I look at the Boston Marathon bomber - that guy was armed, dangerous, and desperate. However, the cops in that case also showed high professionalism under pressure, and that suspect was taken alive (IMHO because of the perceived value WRT terrorism). The cases in Boston and Toronto suggest use of deadly force is not warranted as much as it seems to be employed (at least in the US). Maybe it’s the perception of value of the citizen. I don’t know the answer - maybe better training. Your perception of the Boston Marathon bombers is way off. There were two suspects. Tamerlin Tsarnaev, after killing a police officer & hijacking a car was shot multiple times by police, then run over by his brother, and died shortly afterwards. Dhzokhar escaped, but was found in a parked boat several hours later. The police shot the boat dozens of times, hitting Dhzokar in several places before surrendering. The only reason he was taken alive was because none of those shots was fatal. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/27 "2018-04-24T19:48:25Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > I thought the same as many here - that cop did an amazing job. If this horror occurred state-side, the suspect would have been shot for sure. But, as also mentioned, the odds of anyone who just committed this crime and is carrying is pretty high in the US. > > I am sure there are a lot of factors that go into a cop’s decision to pull the trigger: fear, adrenaline, etc. I think one thing that could also be a factor is the perceived worth, or value, of the suspect. I look at the Boston Marathon bomber - that guy was armed, dangerous, and desperate. However, the cops in that case also showed high professionalism under pressure, and that suspect was taken alive (IMHO because of the perceived value WRT terrorism). The cases in Boston and Toronto suggest use of deadly force is not warranted as much as it seems to be employed (at least in the US). Maybe it’s the perception of value of the citizen. I don’t know the answer - maybe better training. I remember it quite differently. I remember that the police opened fire on the boat in which he was hiding. I don’t know how many rounds but multiple cops discharging their weapons at the same time. It’s dumb fucking luck for Tsarnaev that he managed to survive with just wounds. ETA: ninja’d ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/28 "2018-04-24T19:51:42Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yes, Sammy Yatim. Shot down in 2013. > > The police officer who shot him down was convicted and sentenced. Good. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/29 "2018-04-24T19:54:20Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I read that too, and assume it’s hyperbole because that claim doesn’t jibe with the fact that the guy graduated from college a week ago. > > (And no, I’m not suggesting they have Steering 101 in their core curriculum, but, I mean— come on.) I bet he graduated York University. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/30 "2018-04-24T20:57:24Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I remember it quite differently. I remember that the police opened fire on the boat in which he was hiding. I don’t know how many rounds but multiple cops discharging their weapons at the same time. It’s dumb fucking luck for Tsarnaev that he managed to survive with just wounds. > > ETA: ninja’d Yah, I did remember it wrong (after a little research). It was just dumb luck he survived - no one was trying not to kill him. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/31 "2018-04-24T21:22:09Z")
1972, your position that a police office is racist for not shooting a mass murder is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/32 "2018-04-24T21:26:51Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I bet he graduated York University. Senaca , I think ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/33 "2018-04-24T21:37:52Z")
Reports worth read before opining. [http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/publications/files/reports/police\_encounters\_with\_people\_in\_crisis\_2014.pdf](http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/publications/files/reports/police_encounters_with_people_in_crisis_2014.pdf) [http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/publications/files/reports/2013pacerreport.pdf](http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/publications/files/reports/2013pacerreport.pdf) The officer who arrested Minassian acted professionally and in the best interests of the community and the person he arrested. A job very well done. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/34 "2018-04-24T21:47:56Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Yah, I did remember it wrong (after a little research). It was just dumb luck he survived - no one was trying not to kill him. Yes, there are a number of words that one could use to describe the police during that event, but ‘restrained’ is not one I would select. [Here is a video (mostly audio, really) of the police shooting at the boat](https://youtu.be/Tj1uVxFhe3A?t=24s). ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/35 "2018-04-24T22:35:44Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I bet he graduated York University. Seneca College. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/36 "2018-04-25T08:30:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > > [@Clothahump](#): > > > > I’m glad the situation resolved okay. But I must admit that the officer did make a few fundamental mistakes. > > What mistakes did he make? **Clothahump** , I know you’re a former officer. Like **Malthus** , I’m curious what mistakes you think the officer made? Genuinely curious to hear your viewpoint. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/37 "2018-04-25T08:37:47Z")
Here’s an interesting article from the National Post: [Why Canadian police are so good at not shooting people](http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/why-canadian-police-are-so-good-at-not-shooting-people) > [@](#): > > Both events speak to a pattern: Canadian police are very good at not shooting people. > > “Policing in Canada is not policing in America … the police in Canada use force with incredible infrequency,” said Joel Johnston, a veteran Vancouver Police officer and former use-of-force co-ordinator for the province of British Columbia. > > A recent CBC analysis found that between 2000 and 2017, 461 people were killed as a result of interactions with police in Canada. Of those deaths, 70 per cent were caused by gunshots — or about 19 police shooting deaths per year. > > In the United States by contrast, an average of 982 people per year have been shot and killed by police since 2015, according to The Washington Post. Even given the larger population, that’s a per capita rate of police shootings seven times higher than in Canada. > > Canada’s far lower rate of gun crime certainly plays a role, but Johnston credits police training programs that prioritize de-escalation over confrontation. “(Canadian police) are trained to try and calm folks down,” he said. > [@](#): > > In a video shot from above, documenting the final moments before Const. Lam takes hold of the suspect, it even appears as if the officer holsters his firearm and deploys an expandable baton instead. > > “At that point, I would say that becomes a moment when the officer is explicitly able to identify that the object was not in fact a firearm,” said Maman. > > As per standard training, Canadian police are instructed to carefully pair their “use of force” with the situation they’re facing. This would explain why the officer immediately swapped a gun for a baton upon confirming he was facing a less threatening situation. “That is all training-based,” said Maman. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/38 "2018-04-25T08:46:12Z")
And an article from the officer’s father, himself a former police officer in Hong Kong, who declines to call his son a hero: [Father of ‘hero cop’ praises TPS for ‘professional training’](http://toronto.citynews.ca/2018/04/24/father-of-hero-cop-praises-tps-for-professional-training/) > [@](#): > > “I never (knew) until my son text me the message and call me…everything’s settled…that’s all I know…I (didn’t) even know what’s happening” > > A former Sergeant of Auxiliary Police in Hong Kong, David says he’s proud of his son but stops short of calling him a hero, praising instead the professional training provided by the Toronto Police Service. > > In an interview with OMNI’s Mandarin reporter Jie Yang at his Kennedy Road restaurant, David says his son was doing the job he was trained for. > > “The responsibility of a police officer is to minimize causalities … because they are trained for that,” he says. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/39 "2018-04-25T19:30:40Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > **Clothahump** , I know you’re a former officer. Like **Malthus** , I’m curious what mistakes you think the officer made? Genuinely curious to hear your viewpoint. 🙂 I’m not a former LEO, but I have worked and lived with plenty. Accordingly, and since this isn’t GQ… 1. The officer is lucky the killer didn’t have a bomb on him, or means to detonate one. Not that I’d think ‘suicide bomber’ in every car chase a LEO gets involved in, but I’d think the odds go up in a situation where a crazy deliberately runs a large van/truck through a crowd of people. At least it’s something that you’d start to seriously consider. And if this guy had a body-bomb, or a detonator (like [a cell phone](https://www.wired.com/2011/06/iraqs-invisible-war/)) for a bomb in that van, that cop dies. As well as the poor bastards in the money-changing/Western Union type place behind the van. Not that the Toronto citizenry or media would be happy with the officer doing to that driver, something akin to what happened to [Rigoberto Alpizar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Rigoberto_Alpizar) or [Jean Charles de Menezes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_De_Menezes). Both of those were instances were police/air marshalls reasonably feared the decedent had a bomb, and in both cases the decedents were killed with multiple gunshot wounds. In Menezes’s case, IIRC, the officer emptied the magazine of his pistol into Menezes’s head at contact range. 1. Leaving concealment (the police car) to confront a potentially-armed, violent assailant, is generally a bad idea. Again, the officer is lucky that the crazy wasn’t harmed with a handgun or other concealed firearm. IMHO, I think the officer, with the recent [conviction of fellow Officer Forcillo](http://nationalpost.com/news/toronto/new-charges-for-const-james-forcillo-convicted-in-sammy-yatim-shooting) in mind, and after whatever remedial training occurred department-wide after [the shooting of Sammy Yatim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sammy_Yatim), hesitated in a situation where the officer would have been perfectly within his rights to use deadly force to stop an incipient lethal threat. I don’t think the officer recognized in a split second that he was being threatened by a cell phone—though maybe he saw exactly that, and realized this was someone mentally ill, seeking suicide-by-cop. I think it is more likely that the officer would have rather done anything but used lethal force against the driver, and fortunately, did not have to do so. AIUI, in the US, to train away this impulse, LEOs in training are often shown, among other things, a [video of the death of Laurens County (GA) Sheriff’s Deputy Kyle Dinkheller.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kyle_Dinkheller) In the video, Officer Dinkheller conducted a traffic stop for speeding. The driver, Andrew Brannan, became uncooperative, agitated—including asking the officer to shoot him—and ultimately retrieved a carbine from his vehicle, with which he killed Officer Dinkheller. Further, allegedly, Dinkheller had been admonished by his command, prior to this incident for unholstering his weapon too quickly in a prior traffic stop, and it’s theorized—that the fear of being reprimanded again or fired is what stayed his hand from shooting Brannan. I think it is reasonable to infer that Toronto officers are similarly hesitant to use lethal force, after the Yatim disaster. So it goes. The officer in Toronto got lucky here, and was able to arrest the killer. Which is what we want from our law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043/40 "2018-04-25T19:59:23Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > …Again, the officer is lucky that the crazy wasn’t … So, are we sure this cat was “crazy” or is that just your particular prejudice? Would you be just as comfortable saying, “…Again, the officer is lucky that the Armenian wasn’t …”? Being a murderous asshole doesn’t require one to be mentally ill. As a “crazy” I am uneasy with folks making those sorts of unfounded associations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toronto-attack-police-arrest-suspect-police-professionalism-appreciation-thread/813043.md?page=3)