# Torricelli quits Senate race - what does NJ Law say about replacing his name? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2002, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391 "2002-10-01T13:25:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![IndependentVoter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e9a140/32.png) [@IndependentVoter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IndependentVoter)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/221 "2002-10-06T01:49:19Z")
I suspect Lautenberg will resign, but one reason to doubt that would be that they would have to put the seat up for grabs again in two years. BTW… Forrester has challenged Lautenberg to 21 debates. That is one for each county, and is the same ploy Lautenberg used to help get himself elected the first time. I wish they would drop the court cases and get on with the mud-slinging. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/222 "2002-10-06T02:47:47Z")
I’m with you on that, **Ivy**! Let 'er rip! ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/223 "2002-10-06T04:17:30Z")
According to this source, military absentee ballots are a [big problem](http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20021002-055118-9582r), even when a normal amount of time is available. > [@](#): > > The Democratic Party’s attempt to replace Sen. Robert Torricelli on the ballot with former Sen. Frank Lautenberg threatens to disenfranchise overseas military personnel. > > In each presidential election, about 200,000 military personnel who try to vote are unable to do so, because they receive their absentee ballots too late or not at all. This brings us a question for you lawyers. What obligation does the court have to those affected by the decision, but who are not parties to the suit? In this case, other than the Dems and the Reps, the lawsuit affects minor party nominees, absentee voters and the general public. Shouldn’t the court be obligated to look out for the rights of these parties? After all, one expects the Dems and the Reps to be looking after their own interests. The public interest is somewhat independent of what either party may want. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/224 "2002-10-06T04:54:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mullinator \* > \*\* > Imagine that happening in multiple races around the country at the same time. > > State party leader - “Hmmm, this candidate that we thought would win is a dead duck. Let’s run Perfect Candidate instead.” > > Perfect Candidate - “Fine by me. I haven’t had to spend any money up to this point. My opponent will have wasted his time and money campaigning against someone else while I have been quietly amassing attack material, a strategy, and a power base. Wonderful.” > > Yeah, that’s what we need. Do overs. \*\* I came into this thread expecting, or anyway hoping, that the people defending the SCONJ decision would make _some_ attempt to address this issue. Instead, I saw it derided it as a “wacky conspiracy theory”, along with choice bits like these deirected at those who feel otherwise: > [@](#): > > \*\*old lies are the best, and this one is a chestnut! A veritable _haiku_ of bullshit! \*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*Yep, that’s right. John Ascroft got thrown out of the Senate by a corpse. I mean, how lame do you have to be to get beat by _a dead guy_? \*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*Rest easy, Pubbies. Anthony “Tony Eyebrows” Scalia will ride to the rescue. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*I know you R’s hate democracy, but please understand that we Democrats happen to be pretty keen on the concept. > \*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*:watches gleefully as another Republican head explodes into a fine pink mist: \*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*You forgot to say “blowjob.” \*\* And > [@](#): > > \*\*You still forgot to say “blowjob.” \*\* I feel like I am covered by a thin layer of slime just from having read through this stuff. Then finally, on the latest page, there was this: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Milo: Because they’re politicians, because Torrecelli’s circumstances are far beyond ordinary, and because of the demographics. > > 1. Politicians love power, and they’re about as likely to quit a campaign as Saddam Hussein is to retire to a chateau in the French countryside.\*\* Nonsense. Politicians quite primary campaigns all the time when they are hopelessly behind in the polls. Someone else in this thread mentioned Andrew Cuomo. Was that man not just as much in love with power as any other politician? Politicians don’t generally drop out after they’ve been nominated, because of the commonly understood difficulty in replacing them. But the precedent set by the SCONJ would appear to alter this. Politicians love power, but the people that run political parties are just as much in love with having their own people _in_ power. And those power-loving politicians generally need, at least to some extent, the co-operation of party leaders to get what they love. I don’t see why this precedent won’t strongly encourage party leaders to make it a condition of their support, for candidates for a nomination, that they agree to drop out in favor of a more viable candidate if they are more than x% behind in the polls at a certain date. Not to mention, they might start trying to intentionally put candidates who agree to take a dive in favor of a candidate who doesn’t want to be put through the wringer of a campaign, as in **Sam Stone** ’s example. Or have one candidate win the primary by appealing to the base, who then takes a dive in favor of one that can win the general election. It sounds to me like a recipe for political parties to maximize their chances of getting their candidates elected. And like I said, political parties are just as much in love with this idea as candidates are in love with power. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > **2. Precious few politicians get nailed for gigantic ethics violations and sanctioned by the Senate in the time between the primary and the general election. The circumstances of Torrecelli’s candidacy changed, not just his poll numbers (though of course, the poll numbers will be repeated ad nauseum by the Republicans).** Irrelevant. He only dropped out because his poll numbers were tanking. If he were still ahead he’d still be running, sanctions or no sanctions. Like you said, politicians are in love with power. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*3. Because theder are hardly any campaigns where substituting a new candidate is going to make a bit of difference. The Democrats could place Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior on the ballot for Governor of Texas, and the Republicans would still win 60% of the vote. The vast majority of elections are decided by ideology, not personal scandal–a substitution would have no prayer of working in when a candidate is loding because of basic party ideology. \*\* Again, irrelevant. Eighty-five percent of the house districts in this country may well be “safe” for one party or the other. But it is in that other fifteen percent that control of the House of Representatives gets decided. Do you not consider it important which party controls the House of Representatives? The parties sure do. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/225 "2002-10-06T06:04:53Z")
Not sure if this is still germane to the thread, or if it’s been mentioned already, but **[http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/05/nyregion/05JERS.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/05/nyregion/05JERS.html)**. In a nutshell, Forrester got on the ballet for the Republican primary by doing the same thing the Democrats are doing: swapping out a candidate damaged by ethics violations, even though the 51 day deadline had passed. > [@](#): > > Mr. Genova also uncovered a legal memorandum from Mr. Forrester’s lawyer written in April, when State Senator Diane Allen, one of Mr. Forrester’s opponents in the Republican primary, was trying to block him from taking the ballot position of James W. Treffinger. Mr. Treffinger, the Essex County executive, had resigned from the race because of scandal three days earlier, or 40 days before the primary. > > Senator Allen maintained that moving Mr. Forrester’s name to Mr. Treffinger’s place on the ballot would come too late under Title 19 of the state election law, which sets a deadline of 51 days before an election for ballot substitutions. It is the same argument that Mr. Forrester’s lawyer, Peter G. Sheridan, made before the State Supreme Court on Wednesday, opposing Mr. Lautenberg’s placement on the ballot. The Democrats said that the deadline was merely a guideline. Doesn’t this sink Forrester’s case? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/226 "2002-10-06T06:22:27Z")
Well, now that you put it that way, it is clear that a strict adherence to the rule of law is the only thing keeping the barbarians from plundering our fair land and stuffing our kittens into microwaves and if an unopposed Democratic candidate is the price of such stern morality, I, for one, stand ready to shoulder the burden. ---
**Author:** ![IndependentVoter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e9a140/32.png) [@IndependentVoter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IndependentVoter)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/227 "2002-10-06T07:10:09Z")
hansel… If that is the case, then Forrestor is a prick. Not only that, but the entire leadership of the Democratic party is brain dead for not making that common knowledge right off the bat. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/228 "2002-10-06T07:21:10Z")
Uh, yeah Sam, it’s, like, completely irrelevant that if you have your way, the voters of New Jersey will be given ballots that don’t properly reflect the candidates for the United States Senate. Fucking democracy. Who needs it? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/229 "2002-10-06T07:22:57Z")
Did I say Sam? I meant Al. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/230 "2002-10-06T14:43:12Z")
If the Supreme Court turfs Lautenberg off the campaign, aren’t they then obligated to turf Forrester, too, making it a campaign between the Torch and Treffinger? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/231 "2002-10-06T17:57:55Z")
**Minty:** I understand. Reflexive habit. (-: ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/232 "2002-10-06T18:09:26Z")
Nah, I should have realized it wasn’t you. You tend to move on to other points once the ones you’ve been talking about have been rebutted. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/233 "2002-10-06T18:12:40Z")
Hey, look: A baby wolf! \ ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/234 "2002-10-07T16:32:59Z")
Not a problem, **december**. Precedent from Florida allows military absentee ballots to be counted even if they’re postmarked after Election Day. And where do you and Sam get the idea that somehow the good voters of New Jersey will be _forced_ to vote for Lautenberg if his name is on the ballot? Will the jack-booted thugs of the Democratic Party be holding any guns to any heads? Sorry, guys, the winner will be the man the majority actually prefers to have in office, assuming there’s no hanky-panky in the counting. That’s called “democracy”, ya know. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/235 "2002-10-07T18:17:57Z")
The Supreme Court rejected Forrester’s challenge without comment. I guess Republican dirty tricks really are okay for Democrats, too. Sorry, I mean: I guess justice does prevail sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/236 "2002-10-07T18:30:34Z")
Well, I’ll be dipped! El Wrongo! I was sure that the SCOTUS would jump right on this, but they won’t touch it! Son of a gun! Of course, I cringe at the embarassment and humiliation of being so totally wrong. I’ll take what scant comfort there may be in partisan gloating. Neener-neener. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/237 "2002-10-07T18:56:46Z")
Paging **ElvisL1ves** , Paging **ElvisL1ves** … ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/238 "2002-10-07T19:06:07Z")
Link, if anyone _really_ can’t believe it… 😃 [http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/07/elec02.nj.s.race/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/07/elec02.nj.s.race/index.html) > [@](#): > > Supreme Court won’t intervene in N.J. case > Monday, October 7, 2002 Posted: 2:43 PM EDT (1843 GMT) > > WASHINGTON (CNN) – The U.S. Supreme Court refused Monday to intervene in New Jersey’s ballot dispute, permitting Democrats to replace Sen. Robert Torricelli with Frank Lautenberg as their U.S. Senate nominee. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/239 "2002-10-07T19:06:58Z")
This is no surprise. As I said above, the New Jersey Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of what New Jersey law means, and there is no showing of federal constitutional violation here. There was no reasonable possibility of the US Supreme Court getting involved. The system works, even if you don’t always like the results. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/240 "2002-10-07T19:14:39Z")
Yes, but _we’re_ the people who were surprised when Darth Vader turned out to be Luke’s father. 😃 and behind us was bricker, going, “oh yeah, i knew that was coming” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391.md?page=13)