# Torricelli quits Senate race - what does NJ Law say about replacing his name? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2002, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391 "2002-10-01T13:25:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/21 "2002-10-01T20:25:12Z")
1. The decision is appealed by the Republicans to SCOTUS on some trumped-up basis. SCOTUS has to either reject the appeal or issue a stay and hear the case. 2. Watch Rehnquist’s head explode, along with the entire on-air staff of Faux News. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/22 "2002-10-01T20:33:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \*\*\* > > 1. Torricelli quits. > > 2. Governor appoints Joe Democrat to fulfill unexpired term. > > 3. Governor calls for a special election for the unexpired Senate term, as he is authorized to do. See U.S. Const. amend. XVII and the statute you quoted above > > 4. Since it’s a _special_ election, Joe Democrat is not subject to the 51/48-day deadline that applies to _general_ elections. > > 5. Watch **december** ’s head explode. \*\* Thanks, **minty.** I appreciate your answer to my question. The Wall St. Journal [addressed](http://opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110002367) this scenario (I think) and explained that it wouldn’t work. They said that the special election wouldn’t replace the general election. > [@](#): > > Assuming the courts adhere to New Jersey law, there’s another gambit the Democrats might try. A New Jersey statute provides the following: > > If a vacancy shall happen in the representation of this state in the United States senate, it shall be filled at the general election next succeeding the happening thereof, unless such vacancy shall happen within thirty days next preceding such election, in which case it shall be filled by election at the second succeeding general election, unless the governor of this state shall deem it advisable to call a special election therefor, which he is authorized hereby to do. > > This law seems to have been intended to deal with situations such as would occur if, say, Sen. Jon Corzine dropped dead next week. His seat isn’t up this year, so Gov. McGreevey would appoint a replacement who’d serve until Election Day 2004, when a special election would be held, the winner of which would serve the two remaining years of Corzine’s term. > > If applied in the current situation, the statute could be construed to mean that if Torricelli resigned next week, the election would be off. Such a reading, however, seems plainly unconstitutional. The 17th Amendment stipulates that senators are to be popularly elected, and it’s hard to imagine that the federal courts would stand for a governor claiming he had the authority to cancel a regularly scheduled election in order to install his own man in office. They also offered a novel idea for another Democrat to take Toricelli’s place. > [@](#): > > There is one legal though unusual way in which Democrats could mount a campaign: by following the Jean Carnahan model. Carnahan, a Missouri Democrat, has not actually been elected to the Senate; her husband, Gov. Mel Carnahan, defeated incumbent John Ashcroft in 2000 but could not take office because he died before the election (and after the deadline for naming a substitute candidate). The Democrat who succeeded Carnahan as governor pledged that if Mel were elected, he’d appoint Jean to his seat. (She faces the voters in a special election next month.) > > So, here’s what New Jersey Democrats could do: Torricelli could pledge that if elected, he would resign from the Senate, and McGreevey could reveal, in advance of the election, his choice for an appointee to serve through Election Day 2004. (In the Carnahan case, some argued that Ashcroft could have challenged the outcome on the ground that a dead man could not be a legal candidate, but no such constraint exists here so long as Torricelli is breathing.) This would mean that if New Jersey voters are determined to have a Democrat in the Senate, they could get their wish–so long as a plurality of them were willing to cast a ballot for Bob Torricelli in order to do so. BTW, after the hash that the Florida SC made of that state’s specific time requirements, I am resigned to the worst. I have every expectation that my state’s SC will be as helpful to our Dems as Florida’s was to theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/23 "2002-10-01T20:34:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\* 1. Torricelli quits. 2. Governor appoints Joe Democrat to fulfill unexpired term. 3. Governor calls for a special election for the unexpired Senate term, as he is authorized to do. See U.S. Const. amend. XVII and the statute you quoted above 4. Since it’s a _special_ election, Joe Democrat is not subject to the 51/48-day deadline that applies to _general_ elections. 5. Watch **december** ’s head explode. \*\* [/QUOTE] But, then, wouldn’t Joe Democrat just serve until the unexpired term is over? That is, until the new Senate term starts in January? (I think it’s January for Congress) And the name on the ballot for the Democrat who’s running to take his seat in January is Toricelli. So I don’t see how that would help the Democrats much, other than if Toricelli promises, if elected, to step down in favor of Joe. But, he could do that anyway, even without resigning now. **December** , if the Democrats do seek a waiver, I’m assuming it’ll be on a stronger argument than “He changed his mind after the deadline.”, because I don’t think that’ll fly. Maybe they found some special circumstance…I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/24 "2002-10-01T20:37:29Z")
As much as the prospect of ballistic crania makes an appealing image, lets hope not. A technicality can be found, most likely will be, and should be. The people of New Jersey deserve a choice, an honorable one, if that be at all possible. Too many times have I held my nose and pulled the lever for the least vile candidate. Further, the (Jerseyites?) have shown, in the past, a strong preference for Dems. The Pubbies are attempting an end run around the people themselves, which is directly contrary to the whole idea of election. If they could impose thier legalistic will on New Jersey, I have little doubt they would do so in a New Jersey minute. Let the Dems put forward a candidate. Let the people choose. On the other hand, Rehnquists head exploding…very tempting. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/25 "2002-10-01T20:42:14Z")
Nice of the WSJ to opine, with no textual support, that the statute “seems to have been intended” or “could be construed” to not allow a special election. There you judicial activist conservatives go again, writing language into the statute that simply isn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/26 "2002-10-01T20:56:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Nice of the WSJ to opine, with no textual support, that the statute “seems to have been intended” or “could be construed” to not allow a special election. There you judicial activist conservatives go again, writing language into the statute that simply isn’t there. \*\* Well, the WSJ is opining (admittedly, without textual support) that the statute wasn’t designed to supercede the general election. I don’t know if that’s true, but it doesn’t seem to to be that much a stretch. Do you know of any cases where winning a special election for Senate did anything more than let the election winner complete the original term of the person he or she replaced? ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/27 "2002-10-01T21:00:54Z")
I think the New Jersey Democratic party panicked and shot themselves in the foot. After Torricelli’s news conference, what possible reason could they advance in their papers for needing to replace him? “Your Honors, good cause exists for granting a waiver to replace Senator Torricelli as a candidate because our polls indicated that he’d probably lose, thereby threatening Democratic control of the Senate.” Even the most rabidly partisan justice is going to need more cover than that. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/28 "2002-10-01T21:11:25Z")
Sorry, Cap’n, I was responding to december and missed your post. I’ll have to get back to you when I figure out a way to weasel out of it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/29 "2002-10-01T21:14:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*I’ll have to get back to you when I figure out a way to weasel out of it. 🙂 \*\* Don’t worry, **minty**. Chances are the weasels on the NJ SC will do the job for you. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/30 "2002-10-01T21:16:29Z")
Like the weasels on the US Supreme Court did it for you, huh? Cry me a river, buddy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2002, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/31 "2002-10-01T21:35:50Z")
From Joe Conason: [http://www.salon.com/politics/conason/2002/09/30/bush/index.html](http://www.salon.com/politics/conason/2002/09/30/bush/index.html) "Just four days ago, Republican senatorial candidate Douglas Forrester demanded that Bob Torricelli step down. “Mr. Torricelli has disgraced himself and New Jersey,” he said. “The people of New Jersey deserve better. I reiterate my call for Mr. Torricelli to resign his office and apologize to the people of New Jersey.” But before Torricelli decided to follow his rival’s advice, Forrester’s friends began whining. “This is a cynical attempt by party bosses to manipulate democracy,” cried the executive director of the Republican Senatorial Campaign Committee." In other words, they’ve suddenly realized that the Torch’s resignation would allow Gov. Jim McGreevey to name a new Democratic senator – who would probably beat Forrester in a special election. Some people are just never satisfied." Sic 'em, Joe. ---
**Author:** ![CLedet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b487fb/32.png) [@CLedet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLedet)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/32 "2002-10-02T01:22:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Let the Dems put forward a candidate. Let the people choose. > \*\* The Dems do have a candidate and he’s loosing, thats the real story behind this bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Oblong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c0e974/32.png) [@Oblong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oblong)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/33 "2002-10-02T01:27:55Z")
If Torricelli were leading in the polls, would he have resigned? If the answer is no, then no replacement deserves to be made. NJ voters made their “choice” by electing him for the primary. Don’t blame the Republicans because he’s an asshole. Blame the democrats for nominating him. They made their bed, now sleep in it. Should every senate candidate in the country who’s trailing right now by 12 points be allowed to quit the race and his/her party nominate a more viable cnadidate. There’s no technicality to ride on. If a replacment is allowed it will be pure partisan poltics at play. I then want all the lefties like Dershowitz, Carville, Begala, et. al to come out and slam the court for doing something wrong like they did in Election 2000. If it’s wrong then, it’s wrong now. BTW, for the record, I believe that in electioin 2000, if the roles were reversed, each side would have made the same arguments that the other side made. I’m sure they’ll do it again. ---
**Author:** ![IndependentVoter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e9a140/32.png) [@IndependentVoter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IndependentVoter)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/34 "2002-10-02T01:32:32Z")
FYI: It is my understanding that some absentee ballots have already been sent out. I’m not a lwayer, so I don’t know exactly how this effects things, but it seems to me like hisorically the courts have treated things a little differently after ballots have been distributed. On a personal level, I think this sets a horrible precedent. This is clearly a case where a candidate didn’t like his poll numbers and decided to try a legal manuever to turn his disadvantage into a disadvantage for his opponent. All of the fault lies with the NJ Democtratic party here. This scandal has been brewing for a long time. Nobody can claim they were blidsided by the allegations. The party had the ability to address this by running someone against Torricelli in the primary but chose not too. The NJ voters never made a stink about getting a new candidate either. Forester has spent his time and money running against Torricelli. It subverts the process to let a candidate waste his opponent’s time and money fighting one candidate and then bailing out at the last second to let an unscathed opponent finish the race. It takes alot to be a legitimate candidate, it’s not like it just happens randomly. Once you put your candidate up there, all bets are off. In addition, there are 4 other candidates running besides Torricelli. While we may all want to focus on the two fornt runners, the fact is that there are many other choices on the ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/35 "2002-10-02T01:47:36Z")
The fault is more with the Democrats in Congress. They should have punted Torricelli when the guy who gave him the swag went to jail for it. That always baffled me: The guy who gives the bribe goes to jail, but the guy who \*received it (the bigger crime, imo) winds up with a slap on the wrist? The Democrats didn’t want to punt him because it would have cost them the Senate. So they held their noses and overlooked one of the worst things a public official can do. So now there’s a mess. If the courts bail out the Democrats on this, and the Democrat goes on to win, and that results in the Democrats holding onto the Senate by 1 seat, then you’re going to hear an awful lot of screaming from angry Republicans. After the last election fiasco, the U.S. doesn’t really need another big scandal. ---
**Author:** ![IndependentVoter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e9a140/32.png) [@IndependentVoter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IndependentVoter)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/36 "2002-10-02T01:49:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > Further, the (Jerseyites?) have shown, in the past, a strong preference for Dems. The Pubbies are attempting an end run around the people themselves, which is directly contrary to the whole idea of election. I can’t see how this is supported by the past 10 years. NJ elected a Republican Governor twice before electing the current Democrat. They might have even taken the last election if they hadn’t fielded such a right-winger. Bob Franks gave Corzine a pretty good run for his money (literally :)). Republicans controlled both the house and the Senate until recently, and I _THINK_ that control of the senate is evenly divided. While NJ could be charachterized as a center-left leaning state, I don’t think you could just write it off as a gimmee to any Democrat who decided to run for office. In addition, I don’t think you can underestimate the effects of 9/11 on NJ politics. We took quite a blow last year, and payback is still on the minds of many people here in NJ. Since a lot of people are looking at the ongoing and upcoming war as a major issue, it’s possible that a divided Senate is not as crucial to some people as it was a year ago. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/37 "2002-10-02T02:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > …then you’re going to hear an awful lot of screaming from angry Republicans. Promise? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/38 "2002-10-02T02:27:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IndependentVoter \* > \*\*It is my understanding that some absentee ballots have already been sent out. > > I’m not a lwayer, so I don’t know exactly how this effects things, but it seems to me like hisorically the courts have treated things a little differently after ballots have been distributed.\*\* Yes, I heard on Fox News tonight that some districts had printed all their ballots, some absentee ballots had gone out and some absentee votes had been received. I don’t think this will have any effect. If the NJ SC wants to let the Dems ignore the time limit, they won’t let administrative inconvenience stand in their way. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/39 "2002-10-02T02:59:34Z")
BTW is there any significance to the NJ SC’s decision to hear the case directly, rather than first going to a lower court? Are they just trying to save time, or does this mean that they’ve already decided to let the Dems use a replacement candidate? We’ll know the answer probably by the end of the week, so get your guesses in promptly! My guess is that the fix is in. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2002, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391/40 "2002-10-02T03:13:38Z")
> [@](#): > > It is my understanding that some absentee ballots have already been sent out. All the more reason to get rid of those idiotic early voting laws. This is far from the only instance where events of the last weeks of an election cycle would have swung enough “absentee” votes to alter the outcome of an election. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torricelli-quits-senate-race-what-does-nj-law-say-about-replacing-his-name/130391.md?page=3)