# Torture and Execution: modern day deterent? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 7, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605 "2003-05-07T06:21:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/21 "2003-05-08T03:10:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Badtz Maru \* > \*\*You could kill them, but that’s wasteful. Castrate them, lobotomize them, and condition them to be workers in the kinds of jobs nobody wants. \*\* I kinda thought that was what our current educational system was all about … ? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/22 "2003-05-08T05:56:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ranchoth \* > **Why? We’re not the ones who’ve done anything wrong. (…) However, it’s just that some of us feel that there should be punishment for those whoviolate those tenants. And that gross violators should receive the severest penalties.** You _do_ see the difference between violence by a lone outlaw and violence by societal standard, right? Whether we like it or not and whether we know it or not, we look to society as we do to a parent. If a lone nut tortures, maims and kills, we shake in terror, shrug over the world’s evil, and turn the newspaper page. If society tortures, maims and kills, it sends the message that it’s OK to do so. And isn’t it “tenets”, not “tenants”? English isn’t my first language, so please correct me if I’m wrong here. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/23 "2003-05-08T07:12:31Z")
It is tenets, and **Rancid** is joking. No sane individual advocates _increasing_ governmental power. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/24 "2003-05-08T07:37:05Z")
It was “tenets,” you’re right. I blame my spellchecker. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/25 "2003-05-08T07:50:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > \*\*Whether we like it or not and whether we know it or not, we look to society as we do to a parent. (…) If society tortures, maims and kills, it sends the message that it’s OK to do so. > \*\* I think that’s somewhat debatable. And in any case, were not talking about indiscriminate torturing, maiming, and killing. We’re talking about torturing and kill people who INSTIGATE violence. Violence against others, and violence against the state. And it would be made clear, in this hypothetical situation, that it is the State ALONE that holds the legitimate right to torture and kill, as a way of dispensing justice, not the right of the individual. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/26 "2003-05-08T08:02:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ranchoth \* > \*\*And in any case, were not talking about indiscriminate torturing, maiming, and killing. We’re talking about torturing and kill people who INSTIGATE violence. Violence against others, and violence against the state. And it would be made clear, in this hypothetical situation, that it is the State ALONE that holds the legitimate right to torture and kill, as a way of dispensing justice, not the right of the individual. \*\* Yes, but the people on the street care little about legitimate or illegitimate rights. People steal, kidnap and kill, even though the state is the only entity that has the rights to do those things. A person growing up in a state that performs torture will be less adverse towards torture than he would otherwise. I’m sure there’s a cite showing something similar somewhere. I’ll see if I can dig one up in my abundant free time. Besides, who gets tortured? Only people we’re sure are guilty? How sure? Only people who confess? Expect drastic drops in the number of confessions. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/27 "2003-05-08T08:20:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > **A person growing up in a state that performs torture will be less adverse towards torture than he would otherwise. I’m sure there’s a cite showing something similar somewhere. I’ll see if I can dig one up in my abundant free time.** That would be appreciated. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > \*\*Besides, who gets tortured? Only people we’re sure are guilty? How sure? Only people who confess? Expect drastic drops in the number of confessions. \*\* I, myself, would only approve of torture for individuals who have already been convicted of a crime, and only then as a form of punishment. As others have noted, using physical torture to extract confessions is, at best, highly unreliable. Mostly due to the “Aargh, all right, I’ll confess, just put away the branding iron” principle. But in any case, it would be unnecessary, as modern forensic science provides a far more reliable means of determining an individual’s guilt or innocence. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/28 "2003-05-08T09:56:31Z")
This is what a quick search found. The following sites show that death penalty isn’t a deterrent, and some claim that death penalty increases crime, especially violent crime. I chose death penalty rather than torture since it’s harder to find reliable statistics from countries using torture. I don’t think it should matter since the effect would be analogous. If you disagree with this, please explain why. Granted, these cites don’t show conclusively that brutal forms of punishment increase crime, but if they don’t deter, there’s no reason to employ them anyway. [This site](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167) examines deterrence regarding the death penalty and cites a few studies. [This site](http://www.lrf.org.zm/Newsletter/august2001/lrf.home.centrespread.htm) mentions that “international studies have consistently failed to show that the use of the penalty leads to any significant reduction in serious crimes”. [This site](http://dpa.state.ky.us/library/advocate/nov97/crime_control.htm) cites several studies showing that the death penalty does not deter crime, and has this paragraph supporting my view: > [@](#): > > **Studies of capital punishment have consistently shown that homicide actually increases in the time period surrounding an execution. Social scientists refer to this as the “brutalization effect.” Execution stimulates homicides in three ways: (1) executions desensitize the public to the immorality of killing, increasing the probability that some people will then decide to kill; (2) the state legitimizes the notion that vengeance for past misdeeds is acceptable; and (3) executions also have an imitation effect, where people actually follow the example set by the state, after all, people feel if the government can kill its enemies, so can they (Bowers and Pierce, 1980; King, 1978, Forst. 1983).** [This site](http://www.webcom.com/peace/PEACTREE/fcl/edufund/dp-resource.html) compares (about 1/3 of the page down) homicide rates for US states using death penalty with homicide rates for US states without the death penalty, and finds that the homicide rates for the former is almost twice the latter. To be fair, it also says that “proof is lacking” of whether the death penalty reduces or increases crime. [Amnesty International](http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engACT500012000?OpenDocument&of=THEMES%5CDEATH+PENALTY?OpenDocument&of=THEMES%5CDEATH+PENALTY), needless to say, says death penalty isn’t a deterrent. [This site](http://www.religioustolerance.org/execut4.htm) cites some studies showing the death penalty deters, some that it doesn’t, and some that it anti-deters. [This site](http://www.law.nyu.edu/recentevents/frenchassembly.html) says that “all fifteen member states of the European Union had outlawed the death penalty and that this has not led to an increase in crime”. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/29 "2003-05-08T10:49:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ranchoth \* > \*\*It was “tenets,” you’re right. I blame my spellchecker. \*\* It’s no use blaming the spell-checker when you correctly spell the wrong word. Even a grammar checker wouldn’t pick up on it. It’s perfectly possible to “violate your tenants”, though it’s pretty much the hallmark of a quintessentially bad landlord and _droit de seigneur_ was largely a dead letter even while judicial torture was still common practice. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![severin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@severin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/severin)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/30 "2003-05-08T11:55:02Z")
Thanx to Priceguy it is now obvious that torture would not be a deterrent. And here a proof that there even is no reason to deter: [The violent crime rate declined 10%, reaching the lowest level in NCVS history.](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.gif) ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/31 "2003-05-08T15:58:05Z")
Hmm. First, does it not follow that given two choices, one in which you will be arrested, given a fair trial, and if found guilty, not forced to undergo cruel or unusual punishment, and another in which you will be flayed and flogged with your entrails, that people would be more likely not to go out fighting and/or bomb police stations? I mean, if I’m going to be horribly tortured for selling drugs, than pulling a car full of explosives up to a government sponsored torture station is going to be lost in the noise, right? It’s not like they can break me on the wheel twice. Also, all this presupposes that anyone, including the state, has the right to torture anyone else. I’d like to see someone demonstrate this as a moral principle. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/32 "2003-05-09T00:33:07Z")
Actually, this sounds a lot like the governments of El Salvador and Argentina during the Cold War. Not anywhere I’d want to live. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/33 "2003-05-09T02:27:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > \*\*Granted, these cites don’t show conclusively that brutal forms of punishment increase crime, but if they don’t deter, there’s no reason to employ them anyway. > my view: > \*\* If capital punishment doesn’t increase the crime rate itself, it still has a reason to be employed, even if without a deterrent effect. The reason is _Punishment_, holding the individual accountable for his or her actions. Incidentally, Japan, of all places, still uses the death penalty. And the last numbers I found, from 1999, indicate that the Japanese murder rate was 1 per 100,000 people, compared with 6.3 per 100,000 in the United States, and 56.5 per 100,000 in South Africa. And, going by [this](http://www.transparency.org/pressreleases_archive/2002/2002.08.28.cpi.en.html) site, of all the countries that use capital punishment, only three-Japan, Singapore, and the United States-ranked higher than 4.9 on the scale measuring political corruption. “10” is considered a perfect score, which only Finland comes closest to, at 9.7. Of the aforementioned top three least corrupt Capital Punishment users, the lowest lack of corruption score was 7.1, for Japan. The US is 7.7, and Singapore is 9.3. Likewise, in the UN’s [Human Development Index](http://hdr.undp.org/), the only death penalty-using countries to make the top 25 in the “livable countries” index were the United States (#6), Japan (#9), and Singapore(#25), alongside several countries that have outlawed the death penalty. Several other countries that use the death penalty, such as Sierra Leone, Mauritania, and the Congo, can be found at the BOTTOM of the list…alongside several countries that have outlawed the death penalty. It leads me to wonder if, perhaps, it’s the character and the culture of a nation that determines the crime rate, rather than the penalties metted out by their justice systems? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/34 "2003-05-09T04:11:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mr. splitfoot \* > \*\* > > For instance, do you think people now adays would be detered from robbing a 7-11 if they new when they were caught they would be stretched on the rack, mutilated thrown into a dungeon? What if the modern day court system threatened to press someone if they refused to confess to rape? > > Would drug dealers be as eager to press their trade if they knew it could easily get their guts slowly pulled out and burned in front of their eyes while they were still alive? > > \*\* Whoa. Thats fucked up to want to torture people over a property crime, a drug deal, or ‘suspicion’ of rape. Torture shouldn’t be implemented because even if it did work, it wouldn’t be worth it. If the US had wanted to, we could’ve just nuked baghdad. It would’ve been easier, but it would not have been worth it. You would be exchanging one form of tyranny (petty crime, which occurs in isolation) for another (severe torture). It took humanity millenium to step out of this world of torture and repression, why would you want to go back? do you really think that the line between good guys & bad guys is that clear & distinct? There are 2 million people in prison in america, the highest percentage of any country on earth (i think). How many of your friends, or your friends friends would end up being tortured? Wouldn’t you suspect that mass torture would just create massive resentment for the government, leading to even more torture? A viscious cycle. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/35 "2003-05-09T04:42:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mr. splitfoot \* > \*\* > > What if the modern day court system threatened to press someone if they refused to confess to rape? > > IMHO, everyone? \*\* This still strikes me as a very extreme position, esp for another torture fan (i love torture books too. i recommend The History of Torture by Brian Innes). People will confess to whatever you want them to confess to under threat of torture. Using torture to coerce confessions is a very screwed up proposal. At least with current psychological torture that the cops use, generally only the guilty are coerced into confessing. The innocent usually aren’t psychologically tortured. Besides, forensics is where true crime solving comes from, not torture. Even though i don’t support the proposal, a videocamera everywhere (even in peoples homes) would greatly increase criminal prosecution and cut down criminal activity, more than torture would. Forensics is the way to go if you want to end crime because not only does it catch true criminals (not just terrorize anybody unlucky enough to get ‘interrogated’ in a dark dungeon into confessing to anything they are asked to confess to) but if criminals realize 95% of them will get caught it will decrease motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/36 "2003-05-09T05:41:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ranchoth \* > **If capital punishment doesn’t increase the crime rate itself, it still has a reason to be employed, even if without a deterrent effect. The reason is _Punishment_, holding the individual accountable for his or her actions.** The point of which is? ---
**Author:** ![MisterThyristor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecccb3/32.png) [@MisterThyristor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MisterThyristor)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605/37 "2003-05-09T07:23:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mr. splitfoot \* > \*\*I just finished a book ‘A History of Torture and Execution’ for the 2nd time. The book gave a pretty factual history, but also leaned heavily towards the facts that they said it didn’t seem to deter anyone. > > So I want to go about this comparing modern society to old times. Back in those days, people had a reason to go to the gallows or the torturer, as a lot of them were sticking up for their faith, way of life or the survival of family.\*\* See, here’s where you’ve got it wrong, right off the bat. People faced the gallows then for the same reasons they are in prison now, such as stealing. Not as many as you think were there for such noble reasons as their faith. And what happened while they were hanging someone for being a pickpocket? As often as not, there would be someone picking the pockets of those in the crowd watching the hanging. So much for the idea of it being a deterrent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-and-execution-modern-day-deterent/173605.md?page=1)