# Torture doesn't work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656 "2016-03-30T17:53:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/261 "2016-04-15T17:42:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You seem to be saying torture is counterproductive (which is probably wrong). But saying torture doesn’t work is like saying that lotteries don’t pay out. > > Over a decade back we had the first $100 million dollar lottery jackpot in American history. I mentioned it and one of the young professionals says that he thinks that lotteries are a tax on people who can’t do math and I remarked that I can’t think of any other way that I can retire in comfort before the weekend. > > So there are some times when in the interests of timing lotteries make sense. There are times where in the interests of timing torture can make sense. > > And you have no proof that torture is counterproductive other than your instinct and the word of people who would be against torture no matter what. > > . I never said torture never works. And, it’s hardly my “instinct” as we have linked to like a half-dozen books and studies on the subject. And, you have posted exactly _zero_ cites that say torture is productive and efficient. That’s pretty definite proof. And yes, even with a 100MM lotto , it’s not a productive way to invest your money. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/262 "2016-04-18T14:31:16Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The illogical thing was to bring up the brizkrieg, and that was your fault not mine. I brought the Algerian case (that you mentioned first too) because it does counter what you spouted about torture. No. No it doesn’t. Are yous till maintaining that TORTURE NEVER WORKS? Or can we move on and say “yes torture works but we should not use it because GIGOBUSTER doesn’t like it” which is a perfectly reasonable argument if you point out why you don’t like it. > [@](#): > > Not really, as pointed before you can only use emotion to counter the lottery metaphor, the facts are indeed telling us that it is counter productive in many forms; the point stands, even when we do know that someone does win it is indeed is no reason to not point out that indeed the lottery does remain the fool’s tax, and torture remains counterproductive. I don’t see anything other than opinions from both sides of the debate saying that torture is either counterproductive or a useful tool depending on who you ask. So I don’t think the facts are actually TELLING us anything. The facts are being interpreted different ways by different people. one group of people are pushing a politically popular stance and the other is taking a politically unpopular stance. > [@](#): > > As noted before, for the Nazis and many Arab dictators, it was actually counterproductive too. And for the French in Algeria and in several other situations it was productive. So is torture ALWAYS counterproductive? > [@](#): > > Yes. That’s a ridiculous argument. You might as well say that because the Germans lost WWII, rocket science doesn’t work. > [@](#): > > As the CIA torture report told us: > > In places were torture took place (and we have to remember that torture gave us false justifications to invade Iraq) “The CIA placed individuals with no applicable experience or training in senior detention and interrogation roles” > > So your affirmation that it is “used when it can be effective” is based on wishful thinking. It is indeed the very essence, the key for why torture proponents are still out there. And it is, as pointed many times before, the real talking point for torture proponents here. I’m not a torture proponent,. I am an anti-bullshit proponent and the notion that torture never wor4ks and torture is always counterproductive are bullshit. America may very well be doing the whole torture thing wrong but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done right. > [@](#): > > Actually, as noted, you did not counter anything, you only resorted to “killing the messenger”, wishful thinking arguments and avoiding what Stratford and many other intelligence groups are reporting. > > What I get from the OP is that it is an argument of what torture offers in general and in practice. As I pointed years ago in a different thread the ones that do think torture works (even on occasion) depend on wishfully thinking that even democracies can control it properly or the intelligence one gets from it. The main reason dictators use it is not for intelligence, but for implanting fear to the population. And as another French General that did not apologized commented he was only sorry that many of the ones he ordered to torture did die before giving the information he wanted. Meaning that he indeed did not care about the intelligence he was supposedly gaining. In the end the main reason was to make sadists happy and to kill even non combatant opposition leaders \*\*with torture gained justifications \*\*. Argelians did not react to the fear as the French expected because it made French rule to look more barbaric than the terrorists they were supposed to be fighting. So independence was the result anyhow. That is a really roundabout way of saying “when we say torture never works, we don’t actually mean torture never works, we mean something else entirely” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/263 "2016-04-18T14:40:11Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > That’s why we cannot go so extreme as to torture people No matter what? Human dignity is important to all of us but is there never a time when we can put that aside temporarily for some greater good? > [@](#): > > Fair enough, that is one argument then. Still a big part of why we shouldn’t torture, but typically the people I’m arguing against are preternaturally convinced of their own morality that using such a perspective is a wasted gesture Who the fuck thinks torture is moral? It may be a necessary evil but who has argued that torture is moral? > [@](#): > > Yes, and the reason why is because we should never make torture legal. However, even I can imagine in some cases where it would be necessary if I think there’s no other choice (I’d probably be wrong though). But if you’re so sure of your choices and the morality of your cause, you should be willing to suffer for it. And not only would I send people to jail for torturing the wrong person, I’d send them to jail for torturing the right person too, because torture should not ever be used. If the overwhelming majority of people feel the same way then we might call it a commonly held social value and we can legislate based on that. but do it with your eyes wide open. You are removing a tool from the interrogator’s toolchest. one that might only be useful in limited circumstances but one that has yielded valueable information in the past (that some people claim we could have gotten in other ways). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/264 "2016-04-18T14:43:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I never said torture never works. > > And, it’s hardly my “instinct” as we have linked to like a half-dozen books and studies on the subject. And, you have posted exactly _zero_ cites that say torture is productive and efficient. That’s pretty definite proof. > > And yes, even with a 100MM lotto , it’s not a productive way to invest your money. I have cited similar books by people on the other side of the debate, what makes your authors more credible than the authors on the other side of the debate? The studies you point to don’t say what you think they say. And most of the cites seem to be opinion pieces by people who would be against torture regardless of their efficacy. And torture is not actually like the lottery, we were using that as an analytical tool. The information that we get from torture is not actually the result of blind luck and happenstance. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/265 "2016-04-18T15:52:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No matter what? > > Human dignity is important to all of us but is there never a time when we can put that aside temporarily for some greater good? It can never be legal, but you can use it. Afterwards, like the soldier who willingly goes into battle knowing he might die, the person must be prosecuted and jailed. We can appreciate the effort while still denying the legal protection to do so. I think torture is such a line that any crossing of it must be punished to ensure we never mitigate the harshness of that rule and never, even for an instance, justify it. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Who the fuck thinks torture is moral? It may be a necessary evil but who has argued that torture is moral? For any immorality, there are those who argue for it. Just look at those who said it was fine to torture the people in Guantanamo because they’re “terrorists”. And not only that, you have people arguing its not torture. Rumsfeld famously claimed that he works all day on his feet so that those pictures of people stacked no top of each other or forced to stand in Abu Ghraib. When it comes to us or them, plenty of people have argued its perfectly moral for us to do whatever we can to them to save us. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If the overwhelming majority of people feel the same way then we might call it a commonly held social value and we can legislate based on that. but do it with your eyes wide open. You are removing a tool from the interrogator’s toolchest. one that might only be useful in limited circumstances but one that has yielded valueable information in the past (that some people claim we could have gotten in other ways). Torture doesn’t work, no information has been received. Even claims of it comes from the people who tortured, so I’d be wary of their truthfulness. And even if that is somehow true, so what? I’m fine with removing that tool from an interrogator. I’m fine with removing it, locking it up, and throwing away the key. And if we ever are in a situation where we need to use it, a person should volunteer to do it and then volunteer to go straight to jail after doing it because torture should never be legal. And despite what you may think, it is a commonly held social value that we don’t torture. I dunno where you’re getting that its not ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/266 "2016-04-18T16:05:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No. No it doesn’t. Are yous till maintaining that TORTURE NEVER WORKS? Or can we move on and say “yes torture works but we should not use it because GIGOBUSTER doesn’t like it” which is a perfectly reasonable argument if you point out why you don’t like it. Can not do, because you continue to make an absolute “yes, torture works” into the conclusion, when it has been shown that it does not work as the proponents insist, and less often than they wishfully think. On top of that it has been shown that most of the time it is used to justify the repression of the enemies of the state, regardless if any information is gained. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t see anything other than opinions from both sides of the debate saying that torture is either counterproductive or a useful tool depending on who you ask. So I don’t think the facts are actually TELLING us anything. The facts are being interpreted different ways by different people. one group of people are pushing a politically popular stance and the other is taking a politically unpopular stance. Like if we did not point to the evidence before: > **[Does torture work?](https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/nov/04/2)** > > Debates about the ethics of torture are all very well, but does it even work in the first place? > [@](#): > > For the sake of completeness and balance it would be nice at this point to be able to show and discuss some evidence that favours the use of torture. I can’t, because in reality, as the report notes, and as I found myself as I trawled the archives searching for material for this piece: > > > [@](#): > > > > ``` > > The scientific community has never established that coercive interrogation methods are an effective means of obtaining reliable intelligence information.(p130) > > > > ``` > > In spite of decades of use, and ample opportunity to gather statistics, there just isn’t any scientific evidence beyond a few dubious anecdotes to show that torture works. Torture is an extreme method, and before we even reach the ethical and moral debate over its use, the effectiveness of it must be demonstrated to some reasonable degree. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And for the French in Algeria and in several other situations it was productive. So is torture ALWAYS counterproductive? Not likely as one of the Generals that defended the practice had to admit that he was sorry that many died before giving any information; as pointed before that is really what has been noticed by many that investigated the torturers before, virtually all that defended the practice were caught with most of the torture not getting the information they were supposed to be getting, but information to justify more torture and the killing of the victims. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That’s a ridiculous argument. You might as well say that because the Germans lost WWII, rocket science doesn’t work. As pointed before you are the one making the ridiculous show horn of the blitzkrieg in an effort to make my argument ridiculous, it does not work because it is based on a straw man, I never did say what you are trying to make me say, I concentrated on the torture of the Gestapo. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m not a torture proponent,. I am an anti-bullshit proponent and the notion that torture never wor4ks and torture is always counterproductive are bullshit. As the evidence has been noted before (and the Torture report did not only look at the present failures, but also the historical evidence) it is clear who is pushing the bullshit that torture is not counterproductive. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > America may very well be doing the whole torture thing wrong but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done right. As pointed before you are still only pointing at wishful thinking, no good evidence. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That is a really roundabout way of saying “when we say torture never works, we don’t actually mean torture never works, we mean something else entirely” Not really, the lottery metaphor is more valid because it shows why one can talk about it being the fool’s tax. And that it is counterproductive, while accepting that someone can get lucky, but it is not a good idea to use as an investment for all. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/267 "2016-04-18T16:36:14Z")
There’s a key flaw with the argument - used repeatedly in this thread - that torture is ineffective because it produces false positives as well as true positives. Yes, if you are a spy, and your espionage comrade is captured and tortured by the enemy, he may give away your identity as well as some innocent folks’ identities, thus complicating the task for the torturers. But, one way or another, \* you are among those named\*. You should \*\*not \*\*feel safe. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/268 "2016-04-18T17:04:47Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There’s a key flaw with the argument - used repeatedly in this thread - that torture is ineffective because it produces false positives as well as true positives. What it is clear to me is that many are forgetting that the OP is quoting Politifact, as the evidence shows you are continuing to make a false equivalency; the point is that it is not a key flaw, **but that taking the big picture into account** , one can be more accurate to report that torture does not work, while at the same time acknowledging that there are some times when the torturers could get lucky. > [@Velocity](#): > > Yes, if you are a spy, and your espionage comrade is captured and tortured by the enemy, he may give away your identity as well as some innocent folks’ identities, thus complicating the task for the torturers. But, one way or another, \* you are among those named\*. You should \*\*not \*\*feel safe. Of course, but once again, getting lucky is not a good argument to deny all the failures and the main reason why torture is used by bad governments (and makes the democracies that use it into the bad guys too). Getting good information is only an afterthought, terror is the main reason. And torture is more prone to getting the wrong people and it is many times deadly to the victims. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/269 "2016-04-18T17:32:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I have cited similar books by people on the other side of the debate, what makes your authors more credible than the authors on the other side of the debate?. None of your cites say that torture is effective. Please link to one that has said so. A cite that has one isolated case of torture 'working" is not a useful cite in this debate. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/270 "2016-04-18T17:45:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > None of your cites say that torture is effective. Please link to one that has said so. > > A cite that has one isolated case of torture 'working" is not a useful cite in this debate. I went over the cites in this long thread. About\*\* 30\*\* cites that say torture is not effective/productive. Two cites showing possible isolated cases where torture maybe worked. One cite from you- heavily disputed & very biased- that _claims_ it is productive. Ya got nuttin. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/271 "2016-04-18T21:57:54Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > It can never be legal, but you can use it. Afterwards, like the soldier who willingly goes into battle knowing he might die, the person must be prosecuted and jailed. We can appreciate the effort while still denying the legal protection to do so. I think torture is such a line that any crossing of it must be punished to ensure we never mitigate the harshness of that rule and never, even for an instance, justify it. Then don’t bother appreciating the effort? Why not treat the information derived from torture the way courts treat evidence gained from torture? Don’t use it. After WWII, there was a small subset of actual scientific knowledge that the Nazis and Japanese gained through unethical human experimentation. The scientific community has deliberately forgotten and ignored that knowledge because of the source of the information. Should we do the same with information gained from torture? > [@](#): > > Torture doesn’t work, no information has been received. Even claims of it comes from the people who tortured, so I’d be wary of their truthfulness. And some people would say that you should be wary of the truthfulness of claims made by people who are morally opposed to torture. They wouldn’t be the first people in history to lie in defense of a greater good or what they thought was moral. > [@](#): > > And even if that is somehow true, so what? I’m fine with removing that tool from an interrogator. I’m fine with removing it, locking it up, and throwing away the key. And if we ever are in a situation where we need to use it, a person should volunteer to do it and then volunteer to go straight to jail after doing it because torture should never be legal. And despite what you may think, it is a commonly held social value that we don’t torture. I dunno where you’re getting that its not I’m getting it from the fact that its controversial. If it was as commonly held as you think it wouldn’t be any more controversial than murder, rape or child molestation. And who exactly do you expect to volunteer to torture? If hundreds of lives depended on it, would you torture someone if it seemed like the most effective means of extracting information at the time? No? Then leave out the contingency that we can still use it sometime if we really need it. Just say you are willing to live with whatever consequences might arise from wholly rejecting torture and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/272 "2016-04-18T22:26:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > None of your cites say that torture is effective. Please link to one that has said so. > > A cite that has one isolated case of torture 'working" is not a useful cite in this debate. If I am countering the argument that torture NEVER works then all I need is one isolated cite and the debate is over. I win. Torture works. > **[Torture Worked! Foiled Los Angeles Attack! Yay Torture!](https://outsidethebeltway.com/torture_worked_foiled_los_angeles_attack_yay_torture/)** > > After several days of inflamed public debate following official confirmation that the United States government tortured suspected terrorists under specific authorization from the Bush administration, the inevitable pushback has begun.  Several... ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/273 "2016-04-18T22:37:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why not treat the information derived from torture the way courts treat evidence gained from torture? Don’t use it. So if, through torture, a government finds out that terrorists are planning to detonate a bomb and kill hundreds - and the bomb’s current location is also told - aforementioned government should just pretend, “OK, we didn’t hear any of that?” Not evacuate anyone? Not try to disrupt the bombing? Not have bomb-sniffing dogs, security teams sweep anything? Not increase security? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/274 "2016-04-18T22:40:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If I am countering the argument that torture NEVER works then all I need is one isolated cite and the debate is over. I win. Torture works. > > [Torture Worked! Foiled Los Angeles Attack! Yay Torture! – Outside the Beltway](http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/torture_worked_foiled_los_angeles_attack_yay_torture/) No one has made that argument. Next if you scroll down a bit on your own cite: “\*we likely foiled the LA Towers plot months before KSM was captured! \*” > **[Why al-Qaida's plot to bomb L.A.'s Library Tower didn't warrant torture.](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2009/04/why-al-qaida-s-plot-to-bomb-l-a-s-library-tower-didn-t-warrant-torture.html)** > > The Library Tower? Is that the best that Bush's torture apologists can do? ""_In 2002, we broke up [italics mine] a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast." These two statements make clear that however far the plot to attack the Library Tower ever got—an unnamed senior FBI official would later tell the Los Angeles Times that Bush’s characterization of it as a “disrupted plot” was “ludicrous”—that plot was foiled in 2002. But Sheikh Mohammed wasn’t captured until March 2003. How could Sheikh Mohammed’s water-boarded confession have prevented the Library Tower attack if the Bush administration “broke up” that attack during the previous year? It couldn’t, of course…But the plot was already a dead letter. If foiling the Library Tower plot was the reason to water-board Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, then that water-boarding was more than cruel and unjust. It was a waste of water."_ In other words, the torture yielded nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/275 "2016-04-18T23:22:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So if, through torture, a government finds out that terrorists are planning to detonate a bomb and kill hundreds - and the bomb’s current location is also told - aforementioned government should just pretend, “OK, we didn’t hear any of that?” Why should we believe what a terrorist tells us? We know he wants to hurt us. Why would he give us information that compromises that goal? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/276 "2016-04-18T23:31:57Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why should we believe what a terrorist tells us? We know he wants to hurt us. Why would he give us information that compromises that goal? By this logic, no spy, terrorist, enemy agent, saboteur, etc. has ever given out truthful information to their foe. Hey, why would he give his opponent information that compromises the goal. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/277 "2016-04-18T23:57:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > By this logic, no spy, terrorist, enemy agent, saboteur, etc. has ever given out truthful information to their foe. Hey, why would he give his opponent information that compromises the goal. I’m glad we settled that. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/278 "2016-04-19T01:00:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Then don’t bother appreciating the effort? Why not treat the information derived from torture the way courts treat evidence gained from torture? Don’t use it. > > After WWII, there was a small subset of actual scientific knowledge that the Nazis and Japanese gained through unethical human experimentation. The scientific community has deliberately forgotten and ignored that knowledge because of the source of the information. Should we do the same with information gained from torture? Like if that excludes what they learned in WWII about torture, that was not forgotten or ignored, except by the Bush administration. The evidence does support what I have been saying all along. [http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/08/wwii-interrogators-got-information.html](http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/08/wwii-interrogators-got-information.html) > [@](#): > > “We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture,” said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler’s deputy, Rudolf Hess. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > “During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone,” said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. “We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I’m proud to say I never compromised my humanity.” > > Indeed, successful interrogation is a battle of wits and treating the detainee with humanity is one of the cardinal principals in successful interrogation. [Torture actually interferes with that process.](http://www.newsweek.com/neurosciencetorture-doesnt-work-and-heres-why-79365) > **[Ruthless yet humane: Why Obama cited Churchill on torture.](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2009/05/ruthless-yet-humane-why-obama-cited-churchill-on-torture.html)** > > He didn't get the attention he deserved for it, but President Obama was very cleverly fusing liberal principles with an appeal to the basic... > [@](#): > > It would be reassuring to think that somebody close to Obama had handed him a copy of a little-known book called Camp 020: MI5 and the Nazi Spies. This was published by the British Public Record Office in 2000 and describes the workings of Latchmere House, an extraordinary British prison on Ham Common in the London suburb of Richmond, which housed as many as 400 of Hitler’s operatives during World War II. Its commanding officer was a man named Col. Robin Stephens, and though he wore a monocle and presented every aspect of a frigid military martinet (and was known and feared by the nickname “Tin-Eye”), he was a dedicated advocate of the nonviolent approach to his long-term guests. To phrase it crisply—as he did—his view was and remained: “Violence is taboo, for not only does it produce answers to please, but it lowers the standard of information.” > **[Screening Torture](https://books.google.com/books?id=aRQmrz9xuagC&pg=PA226&lpg=PA226&dq=%22torture%2Bhas%2Ba%2Bwell%2Bknown%22&source=bl&ots=P_xvJbGHiV&sig=9-MRcTzFSn5QPaNfuludh_IdUq0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi4w8_HvZnMAhVX12MKHU8SAJ4Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22torture%20has%20a%20well%20known%22&f=false)** > > Before 9/11, films addressing torture outside of the horror/slasher genre depicted the practice in a variety of forms. In most cases, torture was cast as the act of a desperate and depraved individual, and the viewer was more likely to identify with... > [@](#): > > Yes, the Gestapo did torture people for intelligence, especially in later years. But this reflected not torture’s efficacy but the loss of many seasoned professionals in war, increasingly desperate competition for intelligence among Gestapo units and an influx of less disciplined younger members. Why do serious, tedious police work when you have a uniform and a whip? Torture has a well-known deprofessionalization effect As for the Japanese, there could be noting more contra-productive than getting a lie thanks to torture that helped then decide to surrender. > **[Interrogational torture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_torture_for_interrogation)** > > Interrogational torture is the use of torture to obtain information in interrogation, as opposed to the use of torture to extract a forced confession, regardless of whether it is true or false. Torture has been used throughout history during interrogation, although it is now illegal and a violation of international law. > Beyond torture's moral repugnance, most experts who study interrogation consider torture an ineffective and counterproductive means of gathering accurate information, because i... > [@](#): > > Annette Sisco argues that “the [torture] techniques… are specifically designed to make captives pliable and dependent. They are designed to get prisoners to say whatever you want them to say”.[5] Many torture survivors report revealing false or incomplete information since their goal was to satisfy the torturer and end the suffering, not to reveal information.[6] As an example, after the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki during World War II, the Japanese military tortured a captured American P-51 fighter pilot, Marcus McDilda, in order to discover how many atomic bombs the Allies had and what the future targets were. McDilda, who knew nothing about the atomic bomb nor the Manhattan Project, “confessed” under torture that the U.S. had 100 atomic bombs and that Tokyo and Kyoto were the next targets. McDilda’s false confession may have swayed the Japanese leaders’ decision to surrender.[7] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/279 "2016-04-19T01:18:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If I am countering the argument that torture NEVER works then all I need is one isolated cite and the debate is over. I win. Torture works. > > [Torture Worked! Foiled Los Angeles Attack! Yay Torture! – Outside the Beltway](http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/torture_worked_foiled_los_angeles_attack_yay_torture/) Your losing lottery ticket again Monsieur: > **[Media cite DOJ memo to claim link -- refuted by Bush timeline -- between KSM...](https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-friends/media-cite-doj-memo-claim-link-refuted-bush-timeline-between-ksm-waterboarding-thwarted)** > > Media figures have pointed to a 2005 Justice Department memo to claim that the use of waterboarding on Khalid Shaikh Mohammed caused him to reveal information intelligence officials used to foil a plot to attack the Library Tower in Los Angeles. But... > [@](#): > > Media figures have pointed to a 2005 Justice Department memo to claim that the use of waterboarding on Khalid Shaikh Mohammed caused him to reveal information intelligence officials used to foil a plot to attack the Library Tower in Los Angeles. But according to the Bush administration, the plot was broken up more than a year before Mohammed’s capture. > [@](#): > > Conceivably the Bush administration, or at least parts of the Bush administration, didn’t realize until Sheikh Mohammed confessed under torture that it had already broken up a plot to blow up the Library Tower about which it knew nothing. Stranger things have happened. But the plot was already a dead letter. If foiling the Library Tower plot was the reason to water-board Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, then that water-boarding was more than cruel and unjust. It was a waste of water. Again, you are the one pushing bullshit by making it an absolute about “Torture works” You claim that you are not doing that, but the discussion so far leads many to doubt that. As the original cite from the OP noted: > **[Evidence backs Hillary Clinton claim that torture is counterproductive for...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/mar/30/hillary-clinton/evidence-backs-hillary-clinton-claim-torture-count/)** > > The day after the March 22 terrorist attack in Brussels, former Secretary of State and Democratic presidential candidate > [@](#): > > “In the two and a half years following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, U.S. intelligence agencies arrested more that 5,000 suspected terrorists,” said Mark Costanzo of Claremont McKenna College and Ellen Gerrity of Duke University, writing in the journal Social Issues and Policy Review. “There was sufficient hard evidence to bring formal charges against only three of these suspects, and only one of these three was convicted.” \* > > Our ruling > > Clinton said that when it comes to fighting terrorism, “Another thing we know that does not work, based on lots of empirical evidence, is torture.” > > When it comes to the real goal of getting useful intelligence, the preponderance of the evidence shows that the details interrogators will get from a detainee can typically be acquired without torture. When torture is used, the “information” extracted is likely to be fiction created by a prisoner who will say anything to get the punishment to stop. > > All ethical issues aside, the experts say, it doesn’t work because it is extremely inefficient and, in many ways, counterproductive. > > We rate the claim True. - The context there was that if torture worked as proponents expect much more good evidence would had surfaced thanks to the efforts of the Bush administration. What that showed was that what was reported before is the truth about torture, in the vast number of cases torture does not work, and it is really wishful thinking to expect that the ones torturing are not themselves affected by it into seeking justifications for their use, by using torture again. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/280 "2016-04-19T02:15:57Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I’m glad we settled that. > **[Poe's law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law)** > > Poe's law is an adage of Internet culture which says that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, any parodic or sarcastic expression of extreme views can be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of those views. > Poe's law is based on a comment written by Nathan Poe in 2005 on christianforums.com, an Internet forum on Christianity. The message was posted during a debate on creationism, where a previous poster had remarked to another user: "Good thing you included the win... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656.md?page=15)