# Torture doesn't work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656 "2016-03-30T17:53:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/361 "2016-05-26T19:52:05Z")
> [@Pashnish\_Ewing](#): > > Well, that plus their opinions are all based [del]bullshit[/del] conjecture. And that sounds like yet another opinion. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/362 "2016-05-26T19:52:11Z")
OK, let us take the 1-10000 chance that we have the immediately confirmable intel lifeboat case. One where simply lying wont work. We can try: Chatting him up. Good Cop Bad Cop. Turning him. Lying to him. Tricking him. “Less Strenuous” techniques (small cells, crappy food, loud music, etc. or Torture. Only in the last case (_maybe_ in the 4th) do we have the chance of losing forever the intel we so badly need. It’s been shown that in most cases the victim either gets stubborn and refuses to talk or forgets the info under duress. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/363 "2016-05-26T19:53:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _Opinions_ mean nothing. Facts are what count. I’m glad you agree with me. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/364 "2016-05-26T19:54:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Some of the time it would work. Some of the time it would make the subject so stubborn he’d refuse to talk, whereas chatting him up would have worked and some of the time, the pain would make him forget so you’d \*never \*get the info out of him. > > Experts have shown that over a wide range of experiences, other techniques work far better without the chances of the bad results. No they haven’t there are anecdotes but all there are no studies or anything. The closest we get is what we have seen in SERE training and things like that conducted by militaries around the world. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/365 "2016-05-26T20:01:30Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No they haven’t there are anecdotes but all there are no studies or anything. The closest we get is what we have seen in SERE training and things like that conducted by militaries around the world. No, we have given \*\*you cite after cite, study after study. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/366 "2016-05-26T20:13:47Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Torture sure worked for the British against German POWs > > [How Britain tortured Nazi PoWs: The horrifying interrogation methods that belie our proud boast that we fought a clean war | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223831/How-Britain-tortured-Nazi-PoWs-The-horrifying-interrogation-methods-belie-proud-boast-fought-clean-war.html) There is no doubt that torture CAN be abused and I would argue that once started it inevitably WILL be abused but that is a different issue than whether if properly used it can work. The question of whether or not it is counterproductive is an entirely different argument than whether torture can elicit information from a prisoner. I think that the Sere training example is pretty strong evidence that torture works. All anecdotes and opinions seem pretty meaningless on that particular point compared to the proof we see in Sere training. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/367 "2016-05-26T20:18:30Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think that the Sere training example is pretty strong evidence that torture works. No. Since they _know_ they wont really be hurt, they _know_ the “torturers” are not their enemies dedicated to their homelands destruction, and they \*know \*what info they give up is meaningless and wont result in their friends and family dying. It’s a _game._ It’s about as meaningful as pointing to a stat in a Dungeon & Dragons game showing % chance of getting info thru torture and saying “it works!”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/368 "2016-05-26T22:07:07Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You mean the one behind the $36 paywall? This in a nutshell shows that I was correct, the facts you are cherry picking are used to give torture an effectiveness that is note there. In this case I only needed to show that the research exists and it has been peer reviewed, you were wrong. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes, he is using history, his selected anecdotes from history. I can select anecdotes from history to show torture in a different light. As others pointed out yours are ineffective and even the fact checkers have to say to the ones pushing for torture to be wrong once again. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > People are making absolutists statements about torture because they want to removes the issue from debate. Wrong again, **you are the one demanding an absolute** , based on the evidence it is clear that torture does not work in the most basic meaning of the word. That there are exceptions to that rule does not take away the fact that in real life using torture does poison your gathering of information and creates many other problems. Only the governments that do want to live under their poison are the ones that praise it, like the government Donald Trump wants to give us. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/369 "2016-05-26T22:12:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No. Since they _know_ they wont really be hurt, they _know_ the “torturers” are not their enemies dedicated to their homelands destruction, and they \*know \*what info they give up is meaningless and wont result in their friends and family dying. It’s a _game._ > > It’s about as meaningful as pointing to a stat in a Dungeon & Dragons game showing % chance of getting info thru torture and saying “it works!”. It has to be noted that **Damuri Ajashi** ignores the fact that that report (not a study or published science article BTW) is based on an activity where the trainers are for that case omnipotent. Not what you can expect to find in real life. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/370 "2016-05-26T23:19:50Z")
I got the power slightly wrong, those “torturers” were **omniscient**. Still, not what one can expect to find in real life: as the senate torture report noted, the ones expecting that even democracies can find perfect or competent people to do the deed (and be capable of judging the information properly) are the ones getting their ideas from fantasy land. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/371 "2016-05-27T13:50:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No. Since they _know_ they wont really be hurt, they _know_ the “torturers” are not their enemies dedicated to their homelands destruction, and they \*know \*what info they give up is meaningless and wont result in their friends and family dying. It’s a _game._ > > It’s about as meaningful as pointing to a stat in a Dungeon & Dragons game showing % chance of getting info thru torture and saying “it works!”. Bullshit. The fact that they KNOW they won’t be killed shouldn’t provide MORE of an incentive to give up their secrets. Are you fucking kidding me? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/372 "2016-05-27T14:07:52Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > This in a nutshell shows that I was correct, the facts you are cherry picking are used to give torture an effectiveness that is note there. In this case I only needed to show that the research exists and it has been peer reviewed, you were wrong. Cherrypicking?!?! ROFLMAO. You cite a $36 paywall that refers to the journal of POLTICAL SCIENCE!!! You realize that political science is not actually science, right? The journal you article you cite is peer reviewed in the same way that a law review article is peer reviewed. The “peers” do cite checking and fact checking, that’s it. There is no underlying study or experiments. Your definition of science seems to be “opinions that agree with me” The Sere training results are much better "evidence of the efficacy of torture than a bunch of cherrypicked anecdotes and opinions used to build a case. > [@](#): > > As others pointed out yours are ineffective and even the fact checkers have to say to the ones pushing for torture to be wrong once again. WTF are you talking about? Are you saying I can’t find instances in history when torture worked? > [@](#): > > Wrong again, **you are the one demanding an absolute** , based on the evidence it is clear that torture does not work in the most basic meaning of the word. That there are exceptions to that rule does not take away the fact that in real life using torture does poison your gathering of information and creates many other problems. Only the governments that do want to live under their poison are the ones that praise it, like the government Donald Trump wants to give us. Bullshit! You are redefining “works” to mean “the benefits of torture do not justify its costs” That is NOT what people are arguing when they state “torture doesn’t work” They are not trying to debate the cost/benefit balance of torture, they are trying to preclude that debate. If you wanted to say “torture isn’t worth it” then you should say “torture isn’t worth it” If you want to have a moral debate or a cost benefit debate then I suspect you won’t have many people to argue against but the statement that “torture doesn’t work” is NOT intended to be nuanced. Your side has gone from “torture simply doesn’t work” to “torture does not work in the most basic meaning of the word. That there are exceptions to that rule does not take away the fact that in real life using torture does poison your gathering of information and creates many other problems” means I have already won the debate and the rest of this is just your side bitching and moaning about losing the debate. Have some integrity and admit that the statement “torture simply doesn’t work” is not intended to be some nuanced statement that should take into account the toxic effects of torture on the mission and the organizations that engages in it. Its not like I’m asking you to say “You’re right Damuri, I should never have doubted anything you said or will ever say because you are the king of the internet” ETA: And the fact that you have to throw in that shit about Donald Trump shows that you are trying to win the argument with irrelevant tangents that have nothing to do with the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/373 "2016-05-27T14:15:54Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It has to be noted that **Damuri Ajashi** ignores the fact that that report (not a study or published science article BTW) is based on an activity where the trainers are for that case omnipotent. Not what you can expect to find in real life. Do you have a link to a study or published science article? Because noone has linked to any such study or science article. Mostly just opinions, anecdotes and non-scientific articles (made up of opinions and anecdotes). The Sere training results could at least arguably be considered experiments that produce real data not anecdotes and opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/374 "2016-05-27T14:17:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, we have given \*\*you cite after cite, study after study. \*\* Cites are meaningless if they don’t actually cite to anything meaningful. A cite to an opinion adds nothing to your opinion. A cite to anecdotes add nothing to your argument because others are highlighting that anecdote. What studies? How are you defining studies? You realize that an article filled with opinions are not studies right? Someone poring over history to cherrypick anecdotes are not studies right? ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/375 "2016-05-27T14:51:26Z")
**Damuri** , true or false: Spending one’s entire savings on lotto tickets to ensure a happy retirement doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/376 "2016-05-27T15:50:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Cherrypicking?!?! ROFLMAO. You cite a $36 paywall that refers to the journal of POLTICAL SCIENCE!!! You realize that political science is not actually science, right? The journal you article you cite is peer reviewed in the same way that a law review article is peer reviewed. The “peers” do cite checking and fact checking, that’s it. There is no underlying study or experiments. Your definition of science seems to be “opinions that agree with me” This is wrong anyhow, remember your premise is that the research does not exist, you were wrong. It is just that simple. Your point is really just based on propping up an argument from ignorance and you are calling that “a valid effort”. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The Sere training results are much better "evidence of the efficacy of torture than a bunch of cherrypicked anecdotes and opinions used to build a case. The fun thing is that the research I linked to does point at the Sere training as not being representative of real life conditions because the use of it depends on willfully ignoring that the high number of false confessions obtained that way are. (But thanks for acknowledging that it is not research nor published science, it was just training) As the research I’m referring is behind a paywall (and really all of your objection are risible, starting with your premise that just because you can not see it it is then useless), one should at least look at the draft the research made before the final paper. [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjDytSLyfrMAhVPxmMKHUXBCYkQFgglMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fthemonkeycage.org%2FSchiemann-torture.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHP0y56GZbnJsiXPneAImlzpsgp0Q&sig2=ugWoqDF3RPM4ZSa00PGm9w&bvm=bv.122676328,d.cGc&cad=rja](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjDytSLyfrMAhVPxmMKHUXBCYkQFgglMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fthemonkeycage.org%2FSchiemann-torture.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHP0y56GZbnJsiXPneAImlzpsgp0Q&sig2=ugWoqDF3RPM4ZSa00PGm9w&bvm=bv.122676328,d.cGc&cad=rja) > [@](#): > > The normative model requires that interrogational torture be predictable, that it not only can generate clear and valuable information, but that it will do so under known conditions. The analytical model demonstrated via proposition two that the conditions known to generate the TJR under objective questioning also generate the ambiguous information equilibrium, which fully envelopes it, thus creating a multiple equilibrium problem. This multiple equilibrium – predictability problem can be avoided by engaging only in objective questioning, something that apparently does not happen in real world interrogations, given the CIA’s and later the military’s reliance on SERE methods originally used by the Chinese to extract forced (and false) confessions.63 Thus, interrogational torture is not predictable. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > WTF are you talking about? Are you saying I can’t find instances in history when torture worked? And thank you here for reporting to me and others that you are not paying attention, the recent bump of this thread pointed to yet another factcheck that shot down yet another misguided proponent of Torture. > **[Waterboarding works, US Senate candidate (and former CIA officer) Todd Wilcox...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/may/24/todd-wilcox/waterboarding-works-us-senate-candidate-todd-wilco/)** > > U.S. Senate candidate Todd Wilcox said the controversial interrogation practice of waterboarding isn’t torture but an ef > [@](#): > > "Our ruling > > Wilcox said, “I can tell you that the enhanced interrogation techniques that have since been banned by this administration — specifically waterboarding — work.” > > While many top officials defended the CIA’s use of waterboarding in the past, there is no irrefutable evidence the practice provides results. Experts said there are few historical accounts of success, and even those are suspect. Meanwhile, there’s scientific proof that a technique like waterboarding would affect brain function enough to make any prisoner’s statements unreliable. They may say anything to make the waterboarding stop, and could actually be physically unable to provide any cogent intelligence. > > Wilcox didn’t provide concrete proof and experts say virtually none exists. We rate the statement False." > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Bullshit! > > You are redefining “works” to mean “the benefits of torture do not justify its costs” > > That is NOT what people are arguing when they state “torture doesn’t work” They are not trying to debate the cost/benefit balance of torture, they are trying to preclude that debate. If you wanted to say “torture isn’t worth it” then you should say “torture isn’t worth it” As pointed before you are only demonstrating that you are still tossing under the bus the one expert that you cited early. He was the beesnees when telling you how torture may work, but after he checked how it did turn out in real life (by checking the senate torture report) he came to tell us that indeed, “torture doesn’t work”. You are still going with the absolute that we should drop the common use of “x does not work” You may calle it bullshit, but in reality it is more accurate than saying that “torture works” because the later is misleading in the extreme. It is like if you are demanding here that we take as a lesson that groups like the CDC are telling us bullshit because they report that “the ‘natural way’ the anti vaccine people is demanding does not work”, not going to happen. ( **and no one is calling that bullshit even when one does acknowledge that there are exceptions where the anti vaccine people have a point** ) > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > ETA: And the fact that you have to throw in that shit about Donald Trump shows that you are trying to win the argument with irrelevant tangents that have nothing to do with the debate. Sorry, but the reality is that a lot of why this has show up again is because the trash of Trump is percolating from many sources. That you want to avoid dealing with the current events that you are indirectly helping has to be said, even if you do not like it. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/377 "2016-05-27T16:04:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah.:rolleyes: “Fritz Knöchlein, a former lieutenant colonel in the Waffen SS, was one such case. He was suspected of ordering the machine-gunning of 124 British soldiers who surrendered at Le Paradis in northern France during the Dunkirk evacuation in 1940. His defence was that he was not even there. > At his trial, he claimed he had been tortured in the London Cage after the war. He was deprived of sleep for four days and nights after arriving in October 1946 and forced to walk in a tight circle for four hours while being kicked by a guard at each turn. > He was made to clean stairs and lavatories with a tiny rag, for days at a time, while buckets of water were poured over him. If he dared to rest, he was cudgelled. He was also forced to run in circles in the grounds of the house while carrying heavy logs and barrels. When he complained, the treatment simply got worse. > Nor was he the only one. He said men were repeatedly beaten about the face and had hair ripped from their heads. A fellow inmate begged to be killed because he couldn’t take any more brutality. > All Knöchlein’s accusations were ignored, however. He was found guilty and hanged.” > > Boy that sure got us some solid intel.:rolleyes::dubious: Torture led them to Himmler. It worked for the British. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/378 "2016-05-27T16:23:35Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Torture led them to Himmler. It worked for the British. Not what I do remember from the histories I read, this linked one matches what I remember: > **[Himmler's mysterious death in 1945](https://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Panton/Man0554.html)** > > Selkirk Panton was a Daily Express journalist who covered Berlin for years. His papers are in the National Library of Australia. Attached to the British Second Army HQ, he witnessed the events after Himmler's death in May 1945. After the end of the war he was not tortured, he was captured but the British did not know who he was, he was interrogated and when found he admitted it but then committed suicide. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/379 "2016-05-27T16:44:46Z")
They tortured people close to Himmler to find out where he was hiding iirc. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/380 "2016-05-27T17:05:50Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > They tortured people close to Himmler to find out where he was hiding iirc. My assertion here is incorrect as far as I can determine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656.md?page=20)