# Torture doesn't work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656 "2016-03-30T17:53:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/401 "2016-05-30T12:58:35Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > Suppose you set up a SERE training scenario where the torturer said they would stop when the subject confessed to killing JFK. Do you suppose with the 100% success rate that many of the subjects would not falsely confess? But what would a torturer who wants genuinely accurate information do something pointless like that for? Call the folks at the KGB, Mukhabarat, North Korean SSD or Nazi SS evil, but I don’t think “dumb enough to the point of demanding, and accepting an obviously false answer” describes them. The torturer that you describe is trying to get a victim to say something the torturer wants \*even though the torturer knows full well that it is false. \* That’s not what this thread is about. You might as well describe a torturer who demands that his victim say that 2+2 = 7, a wholly useless and inaccurate statement. This thread is about a torturer who wants to elicit useful, accurate information. In other words, the torturer would NOT say, “Tell me that Osama bin Laden is hiding in a cave in eastern Afghanistan! I want you to say that! Repeat after me now: Osama bin Laden is hiding in a cave in eastern Afghanistan!” What would be the point? That would be the interrogation equivalent of leading-the-witness. The torturer would probably demand, “\*Where is \*Osama bin Laden?” ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/402 "2016-05-30T13:37:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But what would a torturer who wants genuinely accurate information do something pointless like that for? Call the folks at the KGB, Mukhabarat, North Korean SSD or Nazi SS evil, but I don’t think “dumb enough to the point of demanding, and accepting an obviously false answer” describes them. > > The torturer that you describe is trying to get a victim to say something the torturer wants \*even though the torturer knows full well that it is false. \* That’s not what this thread is about. You might as well describe a torturer who demands that his victim say that 2+2 = 7, a wholly useless and inaccurate statement. This thread is about a torturer who wants to elicit useful, accurate information. > > In other words, the torturer would NOT say, “Tell me that Osama bin Laden is hiding in a cave in eastern Afghanistan! I want you to say that! Repeat after me now: Osama bin Laden is hiding in a cave in eastern Afghanistan!” What would be the point? That would be the interrogation equivalent of leading-the-witness. > > The torturer would probably demand, “\*Where is \*Osama bin Laden?” In other words, the other scenario in the part of my post you snipped out of the quote that you neglected to address? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/403 "2016-05-30T14:29:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Yes, it is possible that the victim might give out spurious answers long after the truth has already been told. But it is extremely likely also that the truth lies within the first, or first few, responses. The first few responses are more likely to be truthful than the 97th or 99th responses. If you are asserting that is “extremely likely”, then you must have something akin to actual evidence for that assertion. And I don’t mean “because it just makes sense to you”. ---
**Author:** ![ShinyAeon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@ShinyAeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShinyAeon)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/404 "2016-05-30T21:08:12Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I would like to challenge one assumption made by many people in this thread - specifically, the notion that torturers wouldn’t enact any sort of “quality control” and that they would have an “anything goes” approach towards what the victim says - that lying won’t face consequences and that saying that Osama bin Laden is located in Peru would be considered just as valid an answer as saying that he is located in a compound in Abbottabad. > > I imagine it would go far more like this: The torturers would threaten something to the effect of, “If you think this pain is bad right now, we’ll make it 10 or 100 times worse if you tell us a lie.” Threat of greater torture would _not_ stop the victim from lying. Thad Phillips was a boy kidnapped and repeatedly tortured by a seventeen-year-old named Joe Clark (aka “Bonebreaker”), who broke his ankles and legs, and then twisted them for hours because he got a thrill from it. Periodically Thad would claim he heard someone approaching the house, because then Joe Clark would stop torturing him to go see if someone really was coming. When Joe Clark returned, he would torture Thad even harder in retaliation…but Thad kept doing it, because he needed that tiny respite…even if only for a few seconds, even if he’d get it worse afterwards. Fear of greater consequences does NOT keep you from lying under torture, because in the midst of agony, you literally _cannot imagine_ any worse consequence, and you will do or say anything to make it stop _right now_. Also: I think people assume that torturers wouldn’t enact “quality control” because of a belief that those who torture another human being will fall under the effects of the guard-prisoner dynamic discovered in the Stanford Prison Experiment; that the mere fact of torturing another person would cause the torturer to lose his own perspective – to shift his focus away from finding out the truth, and toward dominating and crushing the will of the prisoner. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/405 "2016-05-31T17:20:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Again, we have posted cite after cite saying torture doesnt work. So, you saying “your entire argument seems to rely on opinions rather than facts” means you are ignoring our cites- even tho you have responded to them. Do you have some sort of short term memory issue?😕 And which of those “cite after cite” is more than opinion? There is one article where the author uses game theory which is highly subject to the “rules of the game” If I changed the rules the results would change as well. > [@](#): > > Yes, the fact that there are no repercussions to spilling your guts, no long term consequences and no chance of being killed afterwards totally invalidates the results. Also, of course since you KNOW the “tirture” will stop, why not just give in? But in the real world, the torture doesnt stop. Because these are guys training to become NAVY SEALS. You don’t get there by half assing things and just giving up because, “well, why the fuck not” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/406 "2016-05-31T17:37:25Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And which of those “cite after cite” is more than opinion? There is one article where the author uses game theory which is highly subject to the “rules of the game” If I changed the rules the results would change as well. Of course, but that is only a pathetic counter, to be a good counterargument you need to show why his parameters are not valid, particularly after it was shown that his conclusions were supported by real life reports **after** his paper was published. And it should be mentioned again that the peers that looked at his numbers did approve of them prior to publication. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Because these are guys training to become NAVY SEALS. You don’t get there by half assing things and just giving up because, “well, why the fuck not” You are still missing the point, **it was not a controlled experiment nor science**. Based on what we know your SERE point is analogous to researchers ignoring that a great cancer cure for mice in the lab just does not work on humans outside the lab (and that IIRC has happened many times before in cancer news). And you are now ignoring that SERE was used and deemed a failure outside the controlled environment that was made by the NAVY seals. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/407 "2016-05-31T17:40:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I guess **DrDeth** is right, you forgot right away the professor that used game theory on the torture issue. > > A lot of your augments can be dismissed like that as it is clear that what it is inconvenient to you is dismissed in the silliest of ways. Did you look at the link? The link does not talk about torture. The OTHER link where the author creates “rules” that makes it rational for the torturer to never stop torturing no matter what the prisoner says and makes it rational for the prisoner to keep quiet no matter what the torturer does is dependent on a particular set of assumptions. Change those assumption and you get different results. Sorry but that article provides no evidence other than the notion that torture SOMETIME doesn’t make sense and that SOMETIMES it makes sense to keep your mouth shut no matter what. > [@](#): > > Like this one, once again you are pretending the we should forget that the most experienced person that you pointed out as a supporter of your views turned to look at the evidence and told us in the end that “torture doesn’t work”. Which person is that? Who did I point to? [quote] The reality is that the published paper also pointed at the SERE training and noted that your “100%” success is based on a situation where the “torturers” are omniscient. Game theory showed that SERE can not be applied to real life just as the senate report showed **later**. The fact that he mentions SERE training doesn’t mean he discredited the results. The senate report was written by one side of the argument Or did you forget that? > [@](#): > > And so it follows that “vaccines work” or “science works” are inaccurate. :rolleyes: Good luck in trying to convince the followers of common usage or common sense to follow your dictates. Again the opposite is bullshit, saying that “torture works” is a lot less accurate than the common usage that matches the reality better. There is science behind vaccines. There is science behind… well… science. What science is there behind your statements? > [@](#): > > As for relying on SERE again, you are once again conveniently forgetting that those training reports you are using are based on testimonials and not reviewed science or real life. Are you saying that the military is lying about the results of SERE training? And have been doing so for years? > [@](#): > > The reality is that the professor that used game theory did take your “trump card” and dismissed it already. The fact is that many even before the professor applied the science of game theory have looked at your old SERE chestnut and just like a poster that early knew as a “fact” that torture worked to get Himmler your reliance on SERE is most likely based on tall tales from the ones that still propose that torture is a good idea. As pointed before even SERE was twisted and **failed** to be effective when applied to real life. The fact that someone dismissed it with little to no discussion other than to say its not real world (when they are using FUCKING GAME THEORY support their conclusions) is fucking laughable. > [@](#): > > [The Origins of SERE, and Using Torture Even When It Doesn't Work | ACLU](https://www.aclu.org/blog/speakeasy/origins-sere-and-using-torture-even-when-it-doesnt-work) > > [https://www.aclu.org/feature/out-darkness](https://www.aclu.org/feature/out-darkness) That’s retarded. NOTHING in that article addresses the fact that Navy SEALS divulge information 100% of the time when tortured. It merely points out that is has been used to elicit false confessions by the Chinese. NONE is saying that torture cannot be abused to get false confessions. > [@](#): > > And of course you only show that you are not even aware of what Godwin was about: > > [Nazi analogies - RationalWiki](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law) > “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.” > > It doe snot refer to winning the argument. > BTW, as I never mentioned Hitler or the nazis, nor Godwin, It follows then that you are the one losing the discussion. 🙂 /sigh. > [@](#): > > The point here is that your insistence on not dealing with why Trump is mentioned **only shows us even more ignorance from your part**. Please check the OP, Clinton had her torture comments made when she told in a speech that “torture does not work”. She mentioned Trump in the same speech letting us also know that besides being wrong on torture: > > [https://www.hillaryclinton.com/speeches/remarks-counterterrorism-stanford-university/](https://www.hillaryclinton.com/speeches/remarks-counterterrorism-stanford-university/) > Her speech then had a clear meaning: to show how wrong Trump was regarding this issue and the FactCheck people did agree with her. > > And besides not being effective in real life as the proponents claim there is the added reason that when the enemy does know that torture is happening (to even innocent captives) it is an excellent recruiting tool for our enemies. Nothing in the OP or the link in the OP mentions Trump. Is not knowing the context of her entire speech your definition of disqualifying ignorance? You are bringing trump into the conversation for the same reason people bring Hitler into conversations. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/408 "2016-05-31T17:41:21Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sorry “lotteries are a bad idea for retirement” was not the statement. The statement was: > > “Spending one’s entire savings on lotto tickets to ensure a happy retirement doesn’t work” > > Do you feel this statement is True or False? I don’t see the substantive difference between what you said and what I said but OK I’ll play along. The statement is true. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/409 "2016-05-31T17:47:54Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > Suppose you set up a SERE training scenario where the torturer said they would stop when the subject confessed to killing JFK. Do you suppose with the 100% success rate that many of the subjects would not falsely confess? > > If you gave each subject 4 names, 2 which were ‘real’ and 2 which were ‘false’, and the torturer said they would stop once they got 4 names, that they wouldn’t get all 4 names? > > Or even if they said they would stop once they got 10 names, they wouldn’t get a bunch of made up names as well? > > No one is claiming torture doesn’t get information… Yes, all true. Torture can elicit false confessions. But the exercise that they conducted was to give each Navy SEAL a codeword and then they waterboarded them to see how long it would take for them to give up the codeword. On average they gave up the codeword in a matter of minutes 100% of the time. Noone is saying that torture is 100% effective at getting the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth 100% of the time. Noone is saying that torture cannot be abused to elicit false confessions. NONE of that is relevant to the discussion. The fact of the matter is that some of the most mentally tough guys in the world give up information that they are told NOT to give up within minutes of being tortured. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/410 "2016-05-31T17:50:50Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But what would a torturer who wants genuinely accurate information do something pointless like that for? Call the folks at the KGB, Mukhabarat, North Korean SSD or Nazi SS evil, but I don’t think “dumb enough to the point of demanding, and accepting an obviously false answer” describes them. > > The torturer that you describe is trying to get a victim to say something the torturer wants \*even though the torturer knows full well that it is false. \* That’s not what this thread is about. You might as well describe a torturer who demands that his victim say that 2+2 = 7, a wholly useless and inaccurate statement. This thread is about a torturer who wants to elicit useful, accurate information. > > In other words, the torturer would NOT say, “Tell me that Osama bin Laden is hiding in a cave in eastern Afghanistan! I want you to say that! Repeat after me now: Osama bin Laden is hiding in a cave in eastern Afghanistan!” What would be the point? That would be the interrogation equivalent of leading-the-witness. > > The torturer would probably demand, “\*Where is \*Osama bin Laden?” It has long been an assumption of the “torture doesn’t work” crowd that torturers are really really bad at what they do. I am not an expert interrogator but I bet I could devise a torture protocol that is better than that in a few months with the help of a few psychologists. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/411 "2016-05-31T17:51:53Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > If you are asserting that is “extremely likely”, then you must have something akin to actual evidence for that assertion. And I don’t mean “because it just makes sense to you”. You mean like how Navy Seals give up their codeword within minutes of being tortured? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/412 "2016-05-31T17:58:39Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Of course, but that is only a pathetic counter, to be a good counterargument you need to show why his parameters are not valid, particularly after it was shown that his conclusions were supported by real life reports **after** his paper was published. And it should be mentioned again that the peers that looked at his numbers did approve of them prior to publication. And they also criticized him for the underlying assumptions. Or at least that is what the blurb said. His assumptions are that the torturer has no idea if the prisoner actually knows anything or how likely they are to resist torture if they knew something. The prisoner on the other hand has no idea if the torture would stop if they got the information and game theory basically pushes the torturer in this case to keep torturing no matter what the prisoner says. The prisoner realizing this will keep his mouth shut because there is no benefit to divulging the information. That is a highly stylize scenario and I agreed that torture is not useful for fishing expeditions on random people. > [@](#): > > You are still missing the point, **it was not a controlled experiment nor science**. Based on what we know your SERE point is analogous to researchers ignoring that a great cancer cure for mice in the lab just does not work on humans outside the lab (and that IIRC has happened many times before in cancer news). And you are now ignoring that SERE was used and deemed a failure outside the controlled environment that was made by the NAVY seals. Really? Where’s the real life proof? Oh that’s right, the opinions of a bunch of “experts”, most of whom have never been involved in torturing anyone. The fact that people are willing to come out and publicly condemn torture says NOTHING about its efficacy it only says that people feel pretty comfortable about condemning torture. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/413 "2016-05-31T18:06:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And which of those “cite after cite” is more than opinion? There is one article where the author uses game theory which is highly subject to the “rules of the game” If I changed the rules the results would change as well. > > Because these are guys training to become NAVY SEALS. You don’t get there by half assing things and just giving up because, “well, why the fuck not” > **[Evidence backs Hillary Clinton claim that torture is counterproductive for...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/mar/30/hillary-clinton/evidence-backs-hillary-clinton-claim-torture-count/)** > > The day after the March 22 terrorist attack in Brussels, former Secretary of State and Democratic presidential candidate > **[Neuroscience:Torture Doesn't Work and Here's Why](https://www.newsweek.com/neurosciencetorture-doesnt-work-and-heres-why-79365)** > > Extreme pain and stress can actually impair a person's ability to tell the truth. [https://www.cgu.edu/pdffiles/sbos/costanzo\_effects\_of\_interrogation.pdf](https://www.cgu.edu/pdffiles/sbos/costanzo_effects_of_interrogation.pdf) > **[Why Torture Doesn't Work](https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-interrogated-brain/201603/why-torture-doesnt-work)** > > Do you think torture is a good way to probe the long-term memory circuits of the brain? If you do, why do you? > **[Lying about Torture (II): The Problem with Ticking Dick.](https://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/18/742025/-)** > > Dick and Liz Cheney tell us that enhanced interrogation is not torture and that it made the US safer by providing actionable intelligence. They say it was unwise to make the ... > **[BBC NEWS | World | Africa | Libya 'tortured' Bulgarian medics](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6939216.stm)** > > Muammar Gaddafi's son says Libya tortured six Bulgarian medics accused of infecting children with HIV. > **['Both Sides' Are Wrong: Torture Did Work -- to Produce Lies for War (See...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-both-sides-are-ignor_b_6315678)** > > The truth is that torture did work, but not the way its defenders claim. It worked to produce justifications for policies the establishment wanted, like the Iraq war. > **[US report on 'enhanced interrogation' concludes: torture doesn't work](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/senate-committee-cia-torture-does-not-work)** > > Report says that CIA detainees subjected to ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ produced either faulty intelligence or no intelligence at all [https://www.stratfor.com/sample/analysis/why-torture-counterproductive?utm\_campaign=43737&utm\_medium=affiliate&utm\_source=pepperjam&utm\_term=Memorial](https://www.stratfor.com/sample/analysis/why-torture-counterproductive?utm_campaign=43737&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=pepperjam&utm_term=Memorial) > **[Gadhafi's Torture Prison: Medic Recalls Eight Years in Libyan Jail](https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/gadhafi-s-torture-prison-medic-recalls-eight-years-in-libyan-jail-a-497234.html)** > > Palestinian-born Bulgarian doctor Ashraf al-Hazouz, 37, recalls his eight-year imprisonment in Libyan jails, describing his torture at the hands of Gadhafi's thugs and the ordeals of the five nurses imprisoned with him. > **[Is torture effective for gathering intelligence? - Part 2](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/torture-effective-gathering-intelligence)** [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html) > **[Jean Moulin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Moulin)** > > Jean Pierre Moulin (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}French: \[ʒɑ̃ mu.lɛ̃\]; 20 June 1899 – 8 July 1943) was a French civil servant and resistant who succeeded in unifying the main networks of the French Resistance in World War II, a unique act in Europe. He served as the first President of the National Council of the Resistance from ... Interrogated extensively on a daily basis in Lyon by Klaus Barbie, head of the Gestapo there, and later more briefly in Paris, Moulin never revealed anything to his captors and died near Metz on a train headed for Germany[4] from injuries sustained either during torture or in a suicide attempt. Moulin’s ability not to provide information to the Gestapo was extraordinary given the ferocity of the torture he was subjected to, which reportedly included hot needles being put under his fingernails, doors being closed on his hands until his knuckles broke, the use of screw-levered handcuffs to cut into his wrists and whipping and beatings.[5] or [http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilre...st/barbie.html](http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilre...st/barbie.html) Lise Lesevre, frail and upright despite her 86 years, described the defendant as “Barbie the savage,” saying she recognized him decades later because of his “pale eyes, extraordinarily mobile, like those of an animal in a cage.” Lesevre, who belonged to a resistance group, said the Gestapo arrested her on March 13, 1944, while she was carrying a letter intended for a Resistance leader code-named Didier. She said Barbie spent almost three weeks trying to learn if Lesevre was Didier, and if not, who was. She was interrogated for 19 days, she said, and tortured on nine of them. First she was hung up by hand cuffs with spikes inside them and beaten with a rubber bar by Barbie and his men. “Who is Didier, where is Didier?” were Barbie’s main questions, she said. Next was the bathtub torture. She said she was ordered to strip naked and get into a tub filled with freezing water. Her legs were tied to a bar across the tub and Barbie yanked a chain attached to the bar to pull her underwater. "During the bathtub torture, in the presence of Barbie, I wanted to drink to drown myself quickly. But I wasn’t able to do it. I didn’t say anything. “After 19 days of interrogation, they put me in a cell. They would carry by the bodies of tortured people. With the point of a boot, Barbie would turn their heads to look at their faces, and if he saw someone he believed to be a Jew, he would crush it with his heel,” she said. “It was a beast, not a man,” she said. “It was terror. He took pleasure in it.” During her last interrogation, she said, Barbie ordered her to lie flat on a chair and struck her on the back with a spiked ball attached to a chain. It broke a vertebrae, and she still suffers. “He told me, ‘I admire you, but in the end everybody talks.’” But she never did, and she heard Barbie say finally, “Liquidate her. I don’t want to see her anymore.” or Noor Khan [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sheldo](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sheldo)…\_b\_191404.html then there’s this: [https://books.google.com/books?id=-L...orture&f=false](https://books.google.com/books?id=-L...orture&f=false) “What is surprising is how difficult is to find specific cases where torture produced information that was not known by other means.” “These interrogations’ were not especially productive. Even under the most brutal treatment, few prisoners revealed information not already known to the Gestapo’.” In other words, even when you are as brutal as the fucking Gestapo, torture doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/414 "2016-05-31T18:10:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You mean like how Navy Seals give up their codeword within minutes of being tortured? In \*a game. \* ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/415 "2016-05-31T18:58:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And they also criticized him for the underlying assumptions. Or at least that is what the blurb said. And as usual you cherry pick, the overall point remains. The ones that reviewed his numbers did not found any issues and the paper was published, the reality remains that he has been highlighted in many recent reports because his paper matched the results seen in the Senate torture report (As the author tells it, the real life results of torture were worse than in the model). His results showed that his research and paper was just as valid as many others that use the tool properly in other issues. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > His assumptions are that the torturer has no idea if the prisoner actually knows anything or how likely they are to resist torture if they knew something. The prisoner on the other hand has no idea if the torture would stop if they got the information and game theory basically pushes the torturer in this case to keep torturing no matter what the prisoner says. The prisoner realizing this will keep his mouth shut because there is no benefit to divulging the information. That is a highly stylize scenario and I agreed that torture is not useful for fishing expeditions on random people. And that is what did happen in real life, it was not useful because **real life was not a training exercise.** Like SERE was. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Really? Where’s the real life proof? Oh that’s right, the opinions of a bunch of “experts”, most of whom have never been involved in torturing anyone. The fact that people are willing to come out and publicly condemn torture says NOTHING about its efficacy it only says that people feel pretty comfortable about condemning torture. And the research quoted makes the point that the inefficacy observed when using torture in the model does not use or refers to any moral judgment, it is just logic that points to torture as not working at the levels the proponents claim in real life. Outside of training torture continues to be messy and ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/416 "2016-05-31T21:41:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [PolitiFact | Evidence backs Hillary Clinton claim that torture is counterproductive for counterterrorism](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/30/hillary-clinton/evidence-backs-hillary-clinton-claim-torture-count/) > [Neuroscience:Torture Doesn't Work and Here's Why - Newsweek](http://www.newsweek.com/neurosciencetorture-doesnt-work-and-heres-why-79365) > > [https://www.cgu.edu/pdffiles/sbos/costanzo\_effects\_of\_interrogation.pdf](https://www.cgu.edu/pdffiles/sbos/costanzo_effects_of_interrogation.pdf) > > [Why Torture Doesn't Work | Psychology Today](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-interrogated-brain/201603/why-torture-doesnt-work) > > [Lying about Torture (II): The Problem with Ticking Dick.](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/18/742025/-) > > [BBC NEWS | Africa | Libya 'tortured' Bulgarian medics](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6939216.stm) > > ['Both Sides' Are Wrong: Torture Did Work -- to Produce Lies for War (See Footnote 857 of Report) | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-husseini/what-both-sides-are-ignor_b_6315678.html) > [US report on 'enhanced interrogation' concludes: torture doesn't work | CIA torture report | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/senate-committee-cia-torture-does-not-work) > [Stratfor: The World's Leading Geopolitical Intelligence Platform](https://www.stratfor.com/sample/analysis/why-torture-counterproductive?utm_campaign=43737&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=pepperjam&utm_term=Memorial) > [Gadhafi's Torture Prison: Medic Recalls Eight Years in Libyan Jail - DER SPIEGEL](http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/gadhafi-s-torture-prison-medic-recalls-eight-years-in-libyan-jail-a-497234.html) > > [http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/torture-effective-gathering-intelligence/](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/torture-effective-gathering-intelligence/) > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html) > > [Jean Moulin - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Moulin) > Interrogated extensively on a daily basis in Lyon by Klaus Barbie, head of the Gestapo there, and later more briefly in Paris, Moulin never revealed anything to his captors and died near Metz on a train headed for Germany[4] from injuries sustained either during torture or in a suicide attempt. Moulin’s ability not to provide information to the Gestapo was extraordinary given the ferocity of the torture he was subjected to, which reportedly included hot needles being put under his fingernails, doors being closed on his hands until his knuckles broke, the use of screw-levered handcuffs to cut into his wrists and whipping and beatings.[5] > > or > [http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilre...st/barbie.html](http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilre...st/barbie.html) > Lise Lesevre, frail and upright despite her 86 years, described the defendant as “Barbie the savage,” saying she recognized him decades later because of his “pale eyes, extraordinarily mobile, like those of an animal in a cage.” > > Lesevre, who belonged to a resistance group, said the Gestapo arrested her on March 13, 1944, while she was carrying a letter intended for a Resistance leader code-named Didier. > > She said Barbie spent almost three weeks trying to learn if Lesevre was Didier, and if not, who was. She was interrogated for 19 days, she said, and tortured on nine of them. > > First she was hung up by hand cuffs with spikes inside them and beaten with a rubber bar by Barbie and his men. “Who is Didier, where is Didier?” were Barbie’s main questions, she said. > > Next was the bathtub torture. She said she was ordered to strip naked and get into a tub filled with freezing water. Her legs were tied to a bar across the tub and Barbie yanked a chain attached to the bar to pull her underwater. > > "During the bathtub torture, in the presence of Barbie, I wanted to drink to drown myself quickly. But I wasn’t able to do it. I didn’t say anything. > > “After 19 days of interrogation, they put me in a cell. They would carry by the bodies of tortured people. With the point of a boot, Barbie would turn their heads to look at their faces, and if he saw someone he believed to be a Jew, he would crush it with his heel,” she said. > > “It was a beast, not a man,” she said. “It was terror. He took pleasure in it.” > > During her last interrogation, she said, Barbie ordered her to lie flat on a chair and struck her on the back with a spiked ball attached to a chain. It broke a vertebrae, and she still suffers. > > “He told me, ‘I admire you, but in the end everybody talks.’” But she never did, and she heard Barbie say finally, “Liquidate her. I don’t want to see her anymore.” > > or Noor Khan > > [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sheldo](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sheldo)…\_b\_191404.html > > then there’s this: > [https://books.google.com/books?id=-L...orture&f=false](https://books.google.com/books?id=-L...orture&f=false) > > “What is surprising is how difficult is to find specific cases where torture produced information that was not known by other means.” “These interrogations’ were not especially productive. Even under the most brutal treatment, few prisoners revealed information not already known to the Gestapo’.” > > In other words, even when you are as brutal as the fucking Gestapo, torture doesn’t work. Your cites are not convincing. They are a combination of opinions, anecdote, reasons why torture might not work in some cases and the partisan created senate report. None of it is really science that concludes that torture doesn’t work. So lets just make a few things clear. Torture does not work every fucking time it is used. Its not a magic bullet for every situation. Torture can be abused to extract false confessions. Torture has a set of confounding factors that are unique to it. Throwing up arguments against torture along these lines are entirely useless in supporting the notion that torture does not work. We already know there is no scientific study on torture so people string together anecdotes to support their position. But the weight of evidence is that torture works sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/417 "2016-05-31T21:48:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And as usual you cherry pick, the overall point remains. The ones that reviewed his numbers did not found any issues and the paper was published, the reality remains that he has been highlighted in many recent reports because his paper matched the results seen in the Senate torture report (As the author tells it, the real life results of torture were worse than in the model). His results showed that his research and paper was just as valid as many others that use the tool properly in other issues. There’s nothing wrong with his math. And like I have said several times the senate report is a partisan paper. It was created without the input of anyone on the right. The tool you are referring to is logic. That’s mostly what game theory is, a subset of logic. The results are highly sensitive tot eh rules you put in place. The rules he used leads to the results he got, no question there. The problem is that his assumptions are not axiomatic. > [@](#): > > And that is what did happen in real life, it was not useful because **real life was not a training exercise.** Like SERE was. If you have a prisoner that you know has useful information, his analysis doesn’t apply. It only applies when you have no fucking idea the person you are interrogating knows anything. > [@](#): > > And the research quoted makes the point that the inefficacy observed when using torture in the model does not use or refers to any moral judgment, it is just logic that points to torture as not working at the levels the proponents claim in real life. Outside of training torture continues to be messy and ineffective. Game theory is not really research. It is just the application of logic to assumed facts. The game in this case assumes facts that are not always true. But the point stands that you are going to get a lot more people standing up against torture than you will get people standing up for torture because of the moral implications. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/418 "2016-05-31T22:05:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Torture can be abused to extract false confessions. No, torture is _designed_ to extract false confessions. There is no need to ‘abuse’ torture for any particular bad outcome. Of course, I’m happy to hear an example of a regime that used torture and _didn’t_ ‘abuse’ it, but I don’t think one exists. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/419 "2016-06-01T00:08:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There’s nothing wrong with his math. > > And like I have said several times the senate report is a partisan paper. It was created without the input of anyone on the right. That is an even more pathetic reply, you are depending on the same group that got it wrong regarding the WMDs to be correct also on this. There is really no logic on thinking that either the left or the right have the truth, one has to see the evidence and clearly you are an ignorant of what the right did in this case: they ignored what the experts told them it was going to happen. That it was not going to work. > **[Why CIA interrogations report matters: Torture doesn't work and Americans...](https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/why-cia-interrogations-report-matters-torture-doesnt-work-and-americans-need-to-know)** > > As a former professional interviewer with the FBI, I know what works and doesn’t. Torture is not an effective way to get information, and the American people need to know that. > [@](#): > > When concocting the legal opinions to authorize torture, the lawyers inside our government didn’t consult trained interviewers or interrogation experts—the people who actually knew how to get information. They consulted psychologists who helped train U.S. military pilots to resist torture methods should they be captured (torture methods, it should be noted, designed to elicit false confessions). > > If they had consulted trained interviewers, they would have found out what I and my colleagues had known for decades: Torture isn’t just unnecessary; it’s an unreliable way to get information. > > Instead, as the Senate report shows, the CIA brought in untrained interrogators and contractors and asked them to get answers out of Al Qaeda detainees using methods designed to inflict pain, both physical and mental, and even simulate death. The CIA also employed horrific methods, like forced rectal feedings, that were never approved. > > I recall when I learned that cruel techniques were being used. I spoke with several long-term CIA officers and CIA polygraph experts with whom I had worked over many years, and we were all appalled, not just by its immorality, but because we knew it would be counterproductive. > > Apologists say that these methods were used to put the detainees into a state of “learned helplessness,” in which the detainee would depend totally on his captor and give up all information. Those of us who have actually conducted interviews know that this isn’t the way things work. A lot of the rest of your reply is nonsense, and then we have this: > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Game theory is not really research. It is just the application of logic to assumed facts. And so we can dismiss the rest as usual, the paper quoted was not only using logic, he did however some research before hand to get the most likely numbers in place. [http://themonkeycage.org/Schiemann-torture.pdf](http://themonkeycage.org/Schiemann-torture.pdf) > [@](#): > > Moves. The state can engage in two kinds of questioning: objective or leading. Under objective questioning, the state does not tell the detainee what she wants to hear. Under leading questioning, the state does let the detainee know what message would please the state. While leading questioning clearly provides no new or real information, the sad history of forced confessions from the church through the Salem witch trials to contemporary police and military practices reveals that some interrogators do engage in leading questioning. The Higazy case cited above is just a prominent example. This is important because in the first case an innocent detainee cannot provide the sought after information but in the second case, the detainee is able to tell the interrogator what she wants to hear. Thus, under objective questioning, the knowledgeable detainees (weak and strong) have two moves, m and n, where m is a message valuable to the state and n is not, and the innocent detainee can send only message n. > > Thus n is equivalent to keeping silent as well as providing in formation which is not valuable. This might mean information that is immediately perceived as non-valuable, or it could mean that the interrogators verified the information was non-valuable after some investigation. Under leading questioning, the innocent detainee can send message m as well because the interrogator has revealed what she wants to hear, what she considers valuable, to the detainee. Al Qaeda operative Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, for example, told his Egyptian torturers in 2002 what their American counterparts wanted to hear: that there were close connections between Hussein’s Iraq and Al Qaeda. In 2004 he recanted (the CIA also withdrew the intelligence), saying he had asserted the connection only to avoid more torture. 33 He then caught the attention of others when it was realized how close he was to the real thing. [https://thewpsa.wordpress.com/2014/12/31/the-social-scientist-who-knew-torture-wasnt-worth-the-game/](https://thewpsa.wordpress.com/2014/12/31/the-social-scientist-who-knew-torture-wasnt-worth-the-game/) > [@](#): > > Even as the program of enhanced interrogation conducted by Americans at their Guantanamo Bay lockup for purported terrorists was being dismantled, John Schiemann had been applying game theory to model the interaction between a detainee and an interrogator. Game theory, as it is generally defined, creates mathematical models to describe decisions made by rational actors in various scenarios. And despite the sometime unfortunate connotation of that first word, “game,” the technique has proven both flexible and powerful. Some 11 Nobel in economics have been given to game theorists, for example. > > Schiemann’s own work – published in 2012 — demonstrated that, by logic alone, we can know that torture is not going to be effective means to routinely elicit useful intelligence. The information will not only be unreliable, the associate professor of political science at New Jersey’s Farleigh Dickinson University found, but that torture will be increasingly brutal and even more frequent than its proponents imagined. > > That’s what he predicted. > > This month’s Senate report found him correct in every particular. (Well, almost. “My model may have predicted more valuable information would result than actually resulted.”) > > For example, the ideal outcome – that we’ll get lots of sterling information, no one who isn’t a baddie will get tortured, and those who do have good intelligence will give it up – didn’t occur, according to the Senate report. And of the 119 detainees who were subjected to “conditioning,” which, while not waterboarding, was much more brutal than anything even the most heinous American criminal suspect would ever (legally) face, 26 were not guilty of terrorism. They still were treated harshly in large part to maintain the threat of torture should anyone withhold –or appear to withhold — information. > > Not only did torture not produce reliable information, it didn’t even produce information reliably; the Senate report found that seven of the 39 detainees subjected to harshest techniques produced zero intelligence reports after interrogations. > > “The Senate report tells us what happens when you introduce torture into an interrogation room,” he summed up. “I’d like to think my work explains why what happens happens.” > > Ironically, the biggest finding from the real-world test was that interrogational torture doesn’t work, likely damning any subsequent efforts to harness it as a sincere investigational tool. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/420 "2016-06-01T00:34:33Z")
I was also just remembering why that bit about “And like I have said several times the senate report is a partisan paper. It was created without the input of anyone on the right.” sounded so pathetic, it is because it is also wrong like almost all of what you have been pushing around in this thread. > [@](#): > > **The final report was approved on December 13, 2012, by a vote of 9–6, with seven Democrats, one Independent (Angus King), and one Republican (Susan Collins) voting in favor of publication and six Republicans voting in opposition**, and the published minority views of Senator Chambliss were joined by Senators Burr, Risch, Coats, Rubio, and Coburn.[2][3] One has to note that the investigation, hearings and preparation of the Senate Report was a bipartisan effort. So the point of being created without input from anyone on the right is as wrong as deforestation. And it was worse later, one has to note that the partisan vote was to decide if it was going to be **published** , not that the ones on the right were pushed out. \*\*After a revision the vote then was 11-3 to publish. \*\* > [@](#): > > On April 3, 2014, the SSCI voted 11–3 to submit a revised version of the executive summary, findings, and recommendations of the report for declassification analysis in preparation for future public release.[2][3] After eight months, involving contentious negotiations about what details should remain classified,[5][6] the revised executive summary, findings, and recommendations were made public with some redactions on December 9, 2014.[2][3] I did take a look at the minority report, it really went downhill right away when as a first point they resorted to red herrings and smoke screens, of course one could make the point that the report lacked context, the point of the majority report (that had input from Republicans) still remained. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656.md?page=22)