# Torture doesn't work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656 "2016-03-30T17:53:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/421 "2016-06-01T16:38:50Z")
> [@Pashnish\_Ewing](#): > > No, torture is _designed_ to extract false confessions. There is no need to ‘abuse’ torture for any particular bad outcome. Of course, I’m happy to hear an example of a regime that used torture and _didn’t_ ‘abuse’ it, but I don’t think one exists. I don’t know of a regime that didn’t end up abusing torture either (I don’t know if you have been following the thread but that is a point I brought up for why we shouldn’t use torture) but that doesn’t mean they started out abusing torture. It doesn’t mean that torture is _designed_ to extract false confessions. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/422 "2016-06-01T16:56:33Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That is an even more pathetic reply, you are depending on the same group that got it wrong regarding the WMDs to be correct also on this. There is really no logic on thinking that either the left or the right have the truth, one has to see the evidence and clearly you are an ignorant of what the right did in this case: they ignored what the experts told them it was going to happen. That it was not going to work. WTF does WMDs have to do with anything? What we have is a partisan one sided report. You might as well just call it the DNC report on torture. Most of the report is classified and all we see are conclusions and you seem to think that a statement of conclusions is clear and convincing evidence of… something. > [@](#): > > [Why CIA interrogations report matters: Torture doesn't work and Americans need to know | Fox News](http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/12/09/why-cia-interrogations-report-matters-torture-doesnt-work-and-americans-need-to.html) You see that word OPINION in the link. That should be your first clue. All the opinion in the world doesn’t equal fact no matter HOW much you want it to. > [@](#): > > A lot of the rest of your reply is nonsense, and then we have this: > > And so we can dismiss the rest as usual, the paper quoted was not only using logic, he did however some research before hand to get the most likely numbers in place. > > [http://themonkeycage.org/Schiemann-torture.pdf](http://themonkeycage.org/Schiemann-torture.pdf) I don’t know how often I have to tell you that anecdotes are not research. You cannot ever approach a comprehensive representative dataset of torture and its results because its not the sort of thing that get publicized by torturers. > [@](#): > > He then caught the attention of others when it was realized how close he was to the real thing. > > [Private Site](https://thewpsa.wordpress.com/2014/12/31/the-social-scientist-who-knew-torture-wasnt-worth-the-game/) Yeah, that’s the senate report again.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/423 "2016-06-01T17:04:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I was also just remembering why that bit about “And like I have said several times the senate report is a partisan paper. It was created without the input of anyone on the right.” sounded so pathetic, it is because it is also wrong like almost all of what you have been pushing around in this thread. > One has to note that the investigation, hearings and preparation of the Senate Report was a bipartisan effort. So the point of being created without input from anyone on the right is as wrong as deforestation. And it was worse later, one has to note that the partisan vote was to decide if it was going to be **published** , not that the ones on the right were pushed out. \*\*After a revision the vote then was 11-3 to publish. \*\* > > I did take a look at the minority report, it really went downhill right away when as a first point they resorted to red herrings and smoke screens, of course one could make the point that the report lacked context, the point of the majority report (that had input from Republicans) still remained. The minority response wasn’t science either. It was for the most part a list of objections to the report. > **[U.S. Senate report on CIA torture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_report_on_CIA_torture#Development_of_the_report)** > > The Committee Study of the Central Intelligence Agency's Detention and Interrogation Program is a report compiled by the bipartisan United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) about the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)'s Detention and Interrogation Program and its use of torture during interrogation in U.S. government communiqués on detainees in CIA custody. The report covers CIA activities before, during, and after the "War on Terror". The initial report was approved on Dece The Senate opened the investigation in march of 2009 and the Republicans withdrew their participation by September. The investigation continued for another 5 years without Republican participation before the report was published. It was the product of a partisan exercise by one side of the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/424 "2016-06-01T18:52:13Z")
Oh for fuck’s sake. The fact is, if you allow the CIA to torture people, you’ll get worse results. That’s what “torture doesn’t work” means. “Torture doesn’t work” means that regimes that use torture as a method of gathering information get worse results than regimes that don’t use torture. We’re not talking about theoretical hero-torturers, because in any regime that allows torture such people don’t run the torture chambers. The torture chambers are invariably, without exception, run by people who enjoy torture. It can’t happen any other way. We’re not talking about theoretical torturers who never ask leading questions, because such people don’t exist. Look at Velocity’s objections above. “Where is bin Laden?” “In a cave in Peru.” “Liar! More torture for you!” “Uh, in a cave in Afghanistan?” “Yes, good answer. No torture for a while while we check it out.” Of course the torturer has an idea of what response is plausible. And so of course the torture victim can only give the torturer information that the torturer already believes could be true. If the victim can get the torture to stop for a while by giving plausible answers, he will give plausible answers whether those answers are true or false. Any time the torturer stops the torture is a reward for the victim. The only answer for the torturer then is to continue the torture even when given a plausible answer. So then how does the victim get the torture to stop? If they can’t get the torture to stop by giving the torturer an answer that pleases him, then telling the truth is of no value to the victim. And of course, in real life it always turns out that information is not really interesting to the torturers. Take that guy we waterboarded 100 times. Did they believe that after resisting for 99 waterboardings, on the 100th time he’d finally crack? No, the explicit purpose was to instill what they called “learned helplessness”. That is, break the victim’s will completely, Room 101 style. You create the torture apparatus, and people are fed into the torture apparatus, willy-nilly. And they must be guilty, because otherwise why would you torture them? And it turns out that they admit to everything! See, torture works! And this is what you people who advocate torture want. The ultimate fascist dream of complete subjection of the human will to the greater power of the State. Information is irrelevant, it is not the point of torture. So knowing this, should we allow torture? This is what torture “working” MEANS. When you say torture works, this is what you are arguing for. This is the future you are creating for the human race. You look upon it and pronounce it desirable. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/425 "2016-06-01T21:28:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The minority response wasn’t science either. It was for the most part a list of objections to the report. > > [U.S. Senate report on CIA torture - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_report_on_CIA_torture#Development_of_the_report) > > The Senate opened the investigation in march of 2009 and the Republicans withdrew their participation by September. The investigation continued for another 5 years without Republican participation before the report was published. It was the product of a partisan exercise by one side of the argument. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Very :rolleyes: when one realizes that this was posted already: > [@](#): > > The final report was approved **on December 13, 2012, by a vote of 9–6** , with seven Democrats, one Independent (Angus King),\*\* and one Republican (Susan Collins) voting in favor of publication\*\* and six Republicans voting in opposition, and the published minority views of Senator Chambliss were joined by Senators Burr, Risch, Coats, Rubio, and Coburn.[2][3] Then, on **April 3, 2014** , the SSCI voted 11–3. Someone should tell Susan Collins that she is a Democrat now according to the poster. 🙂 (He should realize that it was the Republicans in the minority report that took their ball and went home, other Republicans took their place. This point of “no Republicans in the report pass 2009” is even more wrong than radioactive yellow cake. And even more roll eyes are for his other points regarding the dismissal of the justifications of the Iraq War, torture had a lot to do with that as thanks to torture the past administration got false evidence to justify the invasion. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/426 "2016-06-01T21:44:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t know how often I have to tell you that anecdotes are not research. And then more :rolleyes: If no basic investigation of the errors and bad intelligence obtained with torture in the past is not considered it would be like you demanding that they apply values to the model blindly in the study. No one is going to follow your “advice” You are the one depending on anecdotes, BTW the past opinion there was from a contributor to FOX news, that was not only using his opinion but he also told us that he interviewed several experts that told him why he is coming to what he is telling us there about the Bush administration not listening to the experts. The reality is that the past administration only was listening to cranks, and they reached for the most **ignorant** solutions to the terrorism issue, “solutions” like excessive surveillance of American citizens, finding justifications for the war, using torture, and many other dumb items. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/427 "2016-06-03T15:21:42Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Oh for fuck’s sake. > > The fact is, if you allow the CIA to torture people, you’ll get worse results. That’s what “torture doesn’t work” means. > > “Torture doesn’t work” means that regimes that use torture as a method of gathering information get worse results than regimes that don’t use torture. > > We’re not talking about theoretical hero-torturers, because in any regime that allows torture such people don’t run the torture chambers. The torture chambers are invariably, without exception, run by people who enjoy torture. It can’t happen any other way. > > We’re not talking about theoretical torturers who never ask leading questions, because such people don’t exist. Look at Velocity’s objections above. “Where is bin Laden?” “In a cave in Peru.” “Liar! More torture for you!” “Uh, in a cave in Afghanistan?” “Yes, good answer. No torture for a while while we check it out.” > > Of course the torturer has an idea of what response is plausible. And so of course the torture victim can only give the torturer information that the torturer already believes could be true. If the victim can get the torture to stop for a while by giving plausible answers, he will give plausible answers whether those answers are true or false. Any time the torturer stops the torture is a reward for the victim. The only answer for the torturer then is to continue the torture even when given a plausible answer. So then how does the victim get the torture to stop? If they can’t get the torture to stop by giving the torturer an answer that pleases him, then telling the truth is of no value to the victim. > > And of course, in real life it always turns out that information is not really interesting to the torturers. Take that guy we waterboarded 100 times. Did they believe that after resisting for 99 waterboardings, on the 100th time he’d finally crack? No, the explicit purpose was to instill what they called “learned helplessness”. That is, break the victim’s will completely, Room 101 style. > > You create the torture apparatus, and people are fed into the torture apparatus, willy-nilly. And they must be guilty, because otherwise why would you torture them? And it turns out that they admit to everything! See, torture works! > > And this is what you people who advocate torture want. The ultimate fascist dream of complete subjection of the human will to the greater power of the State. Information is irrelevant, it is not the point of torture. > > So knowing this, should we allow torture? This is what torture “working” MEANS. When you say torture works, this is what you are arguing for. This is the future you are creating for the human race. You look upon it and pronounce it desirable. No, that is not what people mean when they say "torture simply doesn’t work. There is no implied nuance at play. This is an attempt to forestall debate entirely by saying that there is nothing on the benefits side of the cost benefit analysis because torture simply doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/428 "2016-06-03T15:23:43Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: > > Very :rolleyes: when one realizes that this was posted already: > > Then, on **April 3, 2014** , the SSCI voted 11–3. > > Someone should tell Susan Collins that she is a Democrat now according to the poster. 🙂 (He should realize that it was the Republicans in the minority report that took their ball and went home, other Republicans took their place. This point of “no Republicans in the report pass 2009” is even more wrong than radioactive yellow cake. > > And even more roll eyes are for his other points regarding the dismissal of the justifications of the Iraq War, torture had a lot to do with that as thanks to torture the past administration got false evidence to justify the invasion. Voting for something says nothing about your involvement before the vote. It was the product of partisan efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/429 "2016-06-03T15:25:44Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And then more :rolleyes: > > If no basic investigation of the errors and bad intelligence obtained with torture in the past is not considered it would be like you demanding that they apply values to the model blindly in the study. No one is going to follow your “advice” > > You are the one depending on anecdotes, BTW the past opinion there was from a contributor to FOX news, that was not only using his opinion but he also told us that he interviewed several experts that told him why he is coming to what he is telling us there about the Bush administration not listening to the experts. > > The reality is that the past administration only was listening to cranks, and they reached for the most **ignorant** solutions to the terrorism issue, “solutions” like excessive surveillance of American citizens, finding justifications for the war, using torture, and many other dumb items. The thing is that you CAN rely on anecdotes to refute categorical statements. You CANNOT rely on anecdotes to MAKE categorical statements. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/430 "2016-06-03T15:39:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Voting for something says nothing about your involvement before the vote. It was the product of partisan efforts. :rolleyes: Your opinions are worthless due to your endless moving of the goalposts. Going from a vote from a vote of of 9–6 with one independent and one Republican, to a vote of (much later) 11-3 demonstrate involvement. The reality is that you only showed that you are depending on right wing sources of information for your dumb statement here and those sources continue to repeat the meme of the minority guys leaving and calling that “all” leaving when it is clear that not all Republicans did. The fact is that you were also demonstratively wrong when claiming that they had stop any involvement after 2009. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/431 "2016-06-03T15:47:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The thing is that you CAN rely on anecdotes to refute categorical statements. You CANNOT rely on anecdotes to MAKE categorical statements. And finally, you should realize (well everybody else, as this does not depend on you getting convinced) that no one will follow your foot stomping, there is **plenty** of precedent, evidence and almost all do understand that statements like “anti-vaccine people are loopy” “Homeopathy does not work” “Pseudoscience does not work” and “torture does not work” are valid ones. That many can find exceptions does not deny the overall evidence, and once again "claiming that “torture works” is the misleading statement since it is just based on anecdotes and not the overall evidence, we already do know that your anecdote coming from the military guy you quoted as evidence came later to tell us all that “torture does not work” because he **did** look at the evidence and not just your sorry anecdotary from the partisan right wing. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/432 "2016-06-03T17:34:39Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Your opinions are worthless due to your endless moving of the goalposts. Going from a vote from a vote of of 9–6 with one independent and one Republican, to a vote of (much later) 11-3 demonstrate involvement. The reality is that you only showed that you are depending on right wing sources of information for your dumb statement here and those sources continue to repeat the meme of the minority guys leaving and calling that “all” leaving when it is clear that not all Republicans did. > > The fact is that you were also demonstratively wrong when claiming that they had stop any involvement after 2009. Of course you are wrong: “As a result of the Attorney General’s investigation, the Republican minority on the SSCI concluded that many witnesses were unlikely to participate in the investigation for fear of criminal liability.[3] Citing the Attorney General investigation as their reason, the Republican minority of the SSCI withdrew their participation from the investigation in September 2009.[” > **[U.S. Senate report on CIA torture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_report_on_CIA_torture#Development_of_the_report)** > > The Committee Study of the Central Intelligence Agency's Detention and Interrogation Program is a report compiled by the bipartisan United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) about the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)'s Detention and Interrogation Program and its use of torture during interrogation in U.S. government communiqués on detainees in CIA custody. The report covers CIA activities before, during, and after the "War on Terror". The initial report was approved on Dece Or is having one Republican voting in favor of releasing the executive summary of the report the same thing as participation to you? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/433 "2016-06-03T17:45:22Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And finally, you should realize (well everybody else, as this does not depend on you getting convinced) that no one will follow your foot stomping, there is **plenty** of precedent, evidence and almost all do understand that statements like “anti-vaccine people are loopy” “Homeopathy does not work” “Pseudoscience does not work” and “torture does not work” are valid ones. > > That many can find exceptions does not deny the overall evidence, and once again "claiming that “torture works” is the misleading statement since it is just based on anecdotes and not the overall evidence, we already do know that your anecdote coming from the military guy you quoted as evidence came later to tell us all that “torture does not work” because he **did** look at the evidence and not just your sorry anecdotary from the partisan right wing. You seem to think that the statement “torture simply doesn’t work” was intended to be a shorthand statement that really means to say that "sure torture CAN work and sure it almost always works in situations like SERE training where the torturer knows that the prisoner has verifiable information and the prisoner knows that the torturer knows and there is no evidence that it is any less effective at extracting information than any other method of interrogation; but torture is counterproductive to the overall effort of fighting terrorism (if people know we are using it) and torture can be abused and [insert all the moral arguments here]. But, you are wrong. The statement was clearly intended to be categorical or close to categorical. If you read through the thread, you can almost see the evolution of the definition of the phrase “torture simply doesn’t work” to go from, broken clock, lottery chances of working arguments to counterproductivity arguments, to all sorts of other mealy mouthed weaseling. You’ve lost and you just can’t handle losing on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/434 "2016-06-03T18:35:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Of course you are wrong: Your opinion, 🙂 because it is not based on facts. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > “As a result of the Attorney General’s investigation, the Republican minority on the SSCI concluded that many witnesses were unlikely to participate in the investigation for fear of criminal liability.[3] Citing the Attorney General investigation as their reason, the Republican minority of the SSCI withdrew their participation from the investigation in September 2009.[” > > [U.S. Senate report on CIA torture - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_report_on_CIA_torture#Development_of_the_report) The evidence here is clear, I used logic and the fact is that you did told us that all republican involvement was not there, hence you moving the goalposts now as your ignorance was not supported, your say so does indeed imply that the Republicans did not keep an eye nor accepted the conclusions of the report. When in reality the cite you use is talking about the group of republicans that formed the minority report. **Those are not all Republicans.** Other Republicans decided not to follow the minority group in rejecting the report. [http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/sites/default/files/SSCI-Report-FAQ-FINAL.pdf](http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/sites/default/files/SSCI-Report-FAQ-FINAL.pdf) > [@](#): > > Question > : Some have suggested that the SSCI report is a partisan document. Is this a fair characterization? > > Answer: It is true that the SSCI report was written by the Democratic committee staff, though the review initially included Republican staff and the full support of Republican members, before the committee’s Republican minority withdrew their involvement. Importantly, the report was initiated, adopted, and declassified with three separate bipartisan votes. > > Key findings and conclusions in the report are supported by prominent Republicans on and off the > committee, including Senators McCain, Graham, and Collins. 12 > > The SSCI’s efforts also have the support of a wide range of national security experts, including dozens of retired military flag officers, professional interrogators, career diplomats, and even former CIA director General David Petraeus. 13 > > By contrast, the SSCI minority report does not have bi-partisan support, and its conclusions have been disputed by prominent Republicans such as Senators McCain and Graham. 14 > > Nonetheless, the SSCI report, minority report, and CIA response should each be evaluated on its own merits,\*\* not based on party affiliation. \*\* > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Or is having one Republican voting in favor of releasing the executive summary of the report the same thing as participation to you? As pointed, she may had been the only one early on, but it is clear that after a revision (that logic should tell you that the revisions were requested by the Republicans that remaining involved in looking if the report was valid, and then prominent Republicans voted in favor or supported the conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/435 "2016-06-03T18:51:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You seem to think that the statement “torture simply doesn’t work” was intended to be a shorthand statement that really means to say that "sure torture CAN work and sure it almost always works in situations like SERE training where the torturer knows that the prisoner has verifiable information and the prisoner knows that the torturer knows and there is no evidence that it is any less effective at extracting information than any other method of interrogation; but torture is counterproductive to the overall effort of fighting terrorism (if people know we are using it) and torture can be abused and [insert all the moral arguments here]. > > But, you are wrong. The statement was clearly intended to be categorical or close to categorical. If you read through the thread, you can almost see the evolution of the definition of the phrase “torture simply doesn’t work” to go from, broken clock, lottery chances of working arguments to counterproductivity arguments, to all sorts of other mealy mouthed weaseling. You’ve lost and you just can’t handle losing on the internet. piffle, clearly you did lose in your attempts at making “torture works” to be as valid. As pointed many times before that remains a very misleading statement, because we are talking about real life, not training. On the other hand, when saying “torture doesn’t work” it is a declaration that most closely fit reality and real life. And once again, the one that you pointed at as a supporter of your views came later to tell us that: [http://jamesjoyner.com/2014/12/torture-doesnt-work-the-cia-torture-reports-long-shadow/](http://jamesjoyner.com/2014/12/torture-doesnt-work-the-cia-torture-reports-long-shadow/) > [@](#): > > December 11, 2014 > > Despite more than a decade of reports that the U.S. government had tortured high-level terrorist suspects, including a frank, if detached, admission from President Obama that the nation had “tortured some folks,” Tuesday’s release of the Senate study of the CIA’s detention and interrogation program was chilling. We learned that some interrogation techniques were “brutal and far worse than the CIA represented to policymakers and others.” And we found out that the CIA willfully and routinely misled, if not outright lied to, everyone from their own inspector general to the oversight committees of Congress and even the president of the United States. > \*\* > Torture Doesn’t Work\*\* > > Much of the first day discussion of the report centered on the finding that “enhanced interrogation techniques [were] not an effective means of acquiring intelligence or gaining cooperation from detainees.” Despite claims to the contrary from the CIA, Vice President Cheney and others, this is not new news. Decades of experience by police, military and intelligence interrogators around the world had made it clear long before the 9/11 attacks that the most effective means of extracting useful information from suspects is to win their trust. While physical and psychological torture will certainly get people to talk, the incentive created is to say whatever it takes to get relief. You are strawmanning by claiming that I see a shorthand, no, I see a statement that is closer to the truth and most people do know that while there could be training and rare exceptions there is no good reason to not use such declaration. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/436 "2016-06-04T03:21:06Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Your opinion, 🙂 because it is not based on facts. > The evidence here is clear, I used logic and the fact is that you did told us that all republican involvement was not there, hence you moving the goalposts now as your ignorance was not supported, your say so does indeed imply that the Republicans did not keep an eye nor accepted the conclusions of the report. When in reality the cite you use is talking about the group of republicans that formed the minority report. **Those are not all Republicans.** Other Republicans decided not to follow the minority group in rejecting the report. > > [http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/sites/default/files/SSCI-Report-FAQ-FINAL.pdf](http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/sites/default/files/SSCI-Report-FAQ-FINAL.pdf) Perhaps I should be using a different word because there are clearly Republicans who are anti-torture no matter what types. The point is that there was only one point of view present during the 5 years the report was being created. This is about as convincing as a report by the American petroleum institute on global warming that is composed entirely of anecdotes and the opinions of people who don’t believe in global warming. Or are you saying that because it was written at the behest of a senate committee it has some sort of added evidentiary value? > [@](#): > > As pointed, she may had been the only one early on, but it is clear that after a revision (that logic should tell you that the revisions were requested by the Republicans that remaining involved in looking if the report was valid, and then prominent Republicans voted in favor or supported the conclusions. I thought the vote was to release the report not a vote in support of the conclusions. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/437 "2016-06-04T03:35:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Perhaps I should be using a different word because there are clearly Republicans who are anti-torture no matter what types. The point is that there was only one point of view present during the 5 years the report was being created. This is about as convincing as a report by the American petroleum institute on global warming that is composed entirely of anecdotes and the opinions of people who don’t believe in global warming. > > Or are you saying that because it was written at the behest of a senate committee it has some sort of added evidentiary value? Please, I also do know about the tactics of the global warming deniers, suffice to say that I see a lot of their arguments in your effort over here. As John McCain had a personal encounter with torture I defer to him. [http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2014/12/floor-statement-by-sen-mccain-on-senate-intelligence-committee-report-on-cia-interrogation-methods](http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2014/12/floor-statement-by-sen-mccain-on-senate-intelligence-committee-report-on-cia-interrogation-methods) > [@](#): > > “I commend Chairman Feinstein and her staff for their diligence in seeking a truthful accounting of policies I hope we will never resort to again. I thank them for persevering against persistent opposition from many members of the intelligence community, from officials in two administrations, and from some of our colleagues. > > “The truth is sometimes a hard pill to swallow. It sometimes causes us difficulties at home and abroad. It is sometimes used by our enemies in attempts to hurt us. But the American people are entitled to it, nonetheless. > > “They must know when the values that define our nation are intentionally disregarded by our security policies, even those policies that are conducted in secret. They must be able to make informed judgments about whether those policies and the personnel who supported them were justified in compromising our values; whether they served a greater good; or whether, as I believe, they stained our national honor, did much harm and little practical good. > > “What were the policies? What was their purpose? Did they achieve it? Did they make us safer? Less safe? Or did they make no difference? What did they gain us? What did they cost us? The American people need the answers to these questions. Yes, some things must be kept from public disclosure to protect clandestine operations, sources and methods, but not the answers to these questions. > > “By providing them, the Committee has empowered the American people to come to their own decisions about whether we should have employed such practices in the past and whether we should consider permitting them in the future. This report strengthens self-government and, ultimately, I believe, America’s security and stature in the world. I thank the Committee for that valuable public service. > > “I have long believed some of these practices amounted to torture, as a reasonable person would define it, especially, but not only the practice of waterboarding, which is a mock execution and an exquisite form of torture. Its use was shameful and unnecessary; and, contrary to assertions made by some of its defenders and as the Committee’s report makes clear, it produced little useful intelligence to help us track down the perpetrators of 9/11 or prevent new attacks and atrocities. > > “I know from personal experience that the abuse of prisoners will produce more bad than good intelligence. I know that victims of torture will offer intentionally misleading information if they think their captors will believe it. I know they will say whatever they think their torturers want them to say if they believe it will stop their suffering. Most of all, I know the use of torture compromises that which most distinguishes us from our enemies, our belief that all people, even captured enemies, possess basic human rights, which are protected by international conventions the U.S. not only joined, but for the most part authored. And no, you can not like FOX news put a (D) next to his name, 🙂 he is a Republican Senator. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I thought the vote was to release the report not a vote in support of the conclusions. 😕 Again, I only needed to show that you were wrong about your say so that after 2009 there was no Republican involvement, voting in favor to release the report and to support it was for sure not backed by all republicans, much to their shame, but a few of them realized that partisanship was not a good thing nor a good reason to use in defense of the indefensible. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/438 "2016-06-04T03:41:36Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > piffle, clearly you did lose in your attempts at making “torture works” to be as valid. As pointed many times before that remains a very misleading statement, because we are talking about real life, not training. I have an anecdote for every anecdote you have. I have a consistent result obtained when we use torture against those whimpy navy SEALS. They ALWAYS give up their code and they almost always do it in under a few minutes. You really think that they’re just mailing it in? > [@](#): > > On the other hand, when saying “torture doesn’t work” it is a declaration that most closely fit reality and real life. And once again, the one that you pointed at as a supporter of your views came later to tell us that: > > [Torture Doesn’t Work: The CIA Torture Report’s Long Shadow – James Joyner](http://jamesjoyner.com/2014/12/torture-doesnt-work-the-cia-torture-reports-long-shadow/) I did a search for Joyner in this thread and I don’t see where I point to Joyner as an expert. The first use of the name that I see is on April 19th in post 304. Did I mention him sometime before that? I generally try not to quote “experts” because there is a bias that makes it easier for anti-torture people to be vocal and there is pressure to be anti-torture in the public sphere. But fine, if you want to say that “torture doesn’t” work REALLY means that torture is counterproductive even if it does in fact produce information then I am happy to let you believe that you haven’t suffered a withering defeat on the internet. > [@](#): > > You are strawmanning by claiming that I see a shorthand, no, I see a statement that is closer to the truth and most people do know that while there could be training and rare exceptions there is no good reason to not use such declaration. Do you think that there are times when torture is more effective than asking nicely? Or asked another way, are there times when torture can be effective (if we ignore the secondary effects of torture on our society and reputation)? Or is torture never effective in doing anything but sending us on wild goose chases and getting false confessions? I know you want to dismiss the SERE training because it is so fucking damning but until you can explain how we are able to extract information from trained navy SEALS but cannot use it effectively against prisoners, you have a pretty large hole in your argument. No amount of whining, name calling, shouting or foot staming is going to make that go away. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/439 "2016-06-04T03:47:50Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Please, I also do know about the tactics of the global warming deniers, suffice to say that I see a lot of their arguments in your effort over here. ROFLMAO > [@](#): > > As John McCain had a personal encounter with torture I defer to him. So did I, will you defer to me? > [@](#): > > [http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2014/12/floor-statement-by-sen-mccain-on-senate-intelligence-committee-report-on-cia-interrogation-methods](http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2014/12/floor-statement-by-sen-mccain-on-senate-intelligence-committee-report-on-cia-interrogation-methods) > > And no, you can not like FOX news put a (D) next to his name, 🙂 he is a Republican Senator. Like I said, maybe partisan in the Democrat Republican is not the right phraseology. But the report was written with only one side of the argument participating in its creation. > [@](#): > > Again, I only needed to show that you were wrong about your say so that after 2009 there was no Republican involvement, voting in favor to release the report and to support it was for sure not backed by all republicans, much to their shame, but a few of them realized that partisanship was not a good thing nor a good reason to use in defense of the indefensible. Fine if you want to say that voting for something is involvement in a project that took 5 years with only one side of the argument participating in its creation, then sure. :rolleyes: Are you under the impression that I am defending torture? I am not. I am calling bullshit on a tactic that is intended to circumvent any debate on torture. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/440 "2016-06-04T03:49:39Z")
As to point out to one sorry example of what I see here in the arguments like the global warming deniers use: We already saw how you threw under the bus people like James Joiner, just because he looked at the evidence and told us now that “torture doesn’t work”. I saw that same old scene when climate change deniers pushed scientists like Muller when he “was going to investigate the fraudulent research being made by the climate scientists”, only to be tossed under the bus by the climate change deniers[when Muller actually came with **more** evidence to report that the deniers were wrong.](http://berkeleyearth.org/about/) \*\*Not coincidentally \*\*Donald Trump also follows the crank climate change deniers, as he is with the ones that still mistakenly think that torture is a good idea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656.md?page=23)