# Torture doesn't work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656 "2016-03-30T17:53:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/501 "2016-06-13T20:14:22Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Gee I wonder what those last 4 capital letters make? 🙂 I wonder if you even knew SERE training existed before you encountered them in the torture debate. > [@](#): > > This BTW is yet more evidence that you were wrong by declaring that no one is supporting what I have been saying. Again it is relying in conspiracy theories when one begins by denying right away the levels of support the people that tell you that “torture doesn’t work” have in reality. I have said all along that there are plenty of people who have opinions that align with yours. I said no one who has read this thread and is capable of being swayed on the matter has been swayed by your conglomeration of opinions and anecdotes. My conglomerations of opinions and anecdotes are in fact more instructive in the debate of whether “torture simply doesn’t work” because I never said that torture always works, only that it works (and not in the broken clock/lottery sense) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/502 "2016-06-13T20:15:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes, Of course there were other factors at play in World War fucking II but are you seriously trying to argue that the two nuclear bombs didn’t work (not just in the sense that they actually detonated but in the sense that they helped convince the Japanese to accept unconditional surrender)? > > You see the title of your linked article: > > “Sixty-six years ago, we dropped a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima. Now, **some** historians say that’s not what ended the war.” > > Do you know what that implies about what all the rest of the fucking historians are saying? > > Ignorance indeed. Moving the goal posts, your point was that there were no good arguments, I only had to show that they were. I have seen many historians changing their mind nowadays thanks to the work of historians that just happened to know Japanese. English and Russian. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And yet it worked EVERY FUCKING TIME. A 100% success rate. Again: your declaration is what needs a lot of conditionals. Just like explaining why a cancer cure does not work in the field. > **[A brief note on killing cancer cells in a dish](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-brief-note-on-killing-cancer-cells-in-a-dish/)** > > I am taking the Memorial Day holiday off. I will return next week (or even earlier if something comes up that I can't resist blogging about). In the meantime, here's a general principle that needs to By contrast the declaration that “torture doesn’t work” is much closer to reality. And supported by many experts. And even the people that were involved in SERE. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/503 "2016-06-13T20:19:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I wonder if you even knew SERE training existed before you encountered them in the torture debate. > > I have said all along that there are plenty of people who have opinions that align with yours. Everyone can look back and see that your declarations were that my honesty was shot, the accusation of lying was noted. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I said no one who has read this thread and is capable of being swayed on the matter has been swayed by your conglomeration of opinions and anecdotes. My conglomerations of opinions and anecdotes are in fact more instructive in the debate of whether “torture simply doesn’t work” because I never said that torture always works, only that it works (and not in the broken clock/lottery sense) Based on what the SERE trainer told us you are consulting cuckoo watchmakers when we are dealing with digital watch makers. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/504 "2016-06-13T20:54:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And yet it worked EVERY FUCKING TIME. A 100% success rate. Stop for a second. Can you tell me the difference between this exercise, and a real-life interrogation? What are some of the differences? Can you list them? I mean, I could do it for you, but maybe if you did it yourself you might learn something you already know. Let’s start with finding five things that are different between the waterboarding soldiers are subjected to as part of SERE training, and a military interrogation. Can you do it? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/505 "2016-06-29T16:45:30Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Moving the goal posts, your point was that there were no good arguments, I only had to show that they were. I have seen many historians changing their mind nowadays thanks to the work of historians that just happened to know Japanese. English and Russian. Wait. WHAT!!?!?!?! My point was that “there are no good arguments”??? cite or retract. YOU are the only one that mentioned there being good arguments for or against the efficacy of nuclear bombs. Not only are you putting words in my mouth, you are putting YOUR words in my mouth. I introduced nukes into the discussions when you implied that I supported the use of torture. Then I said that I no more support the use of torture than the use of biological, chemical or nuclear weapons despite my belief that they are effective. You respond by pointing to SOME historians that don’t think the nuclear bomb was important in ending wwii. And I’M moving the goal posts? Are you fucking serious? > [@](#): > > Again: your declaration is what needs a lot of conditionals. Just like explaining why a cancer cure does not work in the field. > > [A brief note on killing cancer cells in a dish | Science-Based Medicine](https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-brief-note-on-killing-cancer-cells-in-a-dish/) Still a hell of a lot more convincing than some game theory based on silly assumptions. > [@](#): > > By contrast the declaration that “torture doesn’t work” is much closer to reality. And supported by many experts. And even the people that were involved in SERE. And yet the only real life evidence we have all points to the fact that torture does in fact work in some cases. And it works 100% of the time in SERE training (and that guy that was involved with SERE training doesn’t even come close to saying what you claim he is saying, it says something about your argument when you have to distort your cites like that). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/506 "2016-06-29T17:28:09Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Everyone can look back and see that your declarations were that my honesty was shot, the accusation of lying was noted. Really? I don’t recall a moderator noting it. Are you sure you’re not just butthurt because you have so thoroughly undermined your own credibility (and continue to do so)? > [@](#): > > Based on what the SERE trainer told us you are consulting cuckoo watchmakers when we are dealing with digital watch makers. That cite doesn’t say what you think it says and I suspect a closer reading on your part will make you stop using it as a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/507 "2016-06-29T17:36:18Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Stop for a second. OK > [@](#): > > Can you tell me the difference between this exercise, and a real-life interrogation? Sure, A SERE trainee is a volunteer. They are never actually in danger of being killed. They always have information the interrogator wants. The interrogator can confirm the information almost immediately. > [@](#): > > What are some of the differences? Can you list them? I mean, I could do it for you, but maybe if you did it yourself you might learn something you already know. None of the differences between SERE training and a real life interrogation leads me to believe that torture doesn’t work. In fact it only reinforces the fact that torture can be effective. > [@](#): > > Let’s start with finding five things that are different between the waterboarding soldiers are subjected to as part of SERE training, and a military interrogation. > > Can you do it? Yeah so one more thing to round it out. The SERE trainees we are talking about are fucking navy SEALS (a lot of other people take SERE training as well, they don’t do better than the Navy SEALS) and the typical Guantanamo Bay detainee is not. Being a Navy Seal is at least as much about mental toughness as it is about physical toughness and yet those pussies can only hold out a couple of minutes before they spill their guts. Now, let me ask you a question. Is there anything that would convince you that torture actually works? We have several historical examples, we have the SERE example and all of that just melt away because human rights expert writes a book saying “nuh uh” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/508 "2016-06-29T18:19:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > None of the differences between SERE training and a real life interrogation leads me to believe that torture doesn’t work. In fact it only reinforces the fact that torture can be effective. Your statement was that you are not supporting torture, but as usual this betrays the reasoning why you continue with no good support. Sorry, but you have not demonstrated that anyone is supporting you in your point that game theory is not a serous way to investigate this issue. Nor you have shown that the evidence found did not confirm that a lot of what theory told us was going to happen. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah so one more thing to round it out. The SERE trainees we are talking about are fucking navy SEALS (a lot of other people take SERE training as well, they don’t do better than the Navy SEALS) and the typical Guantanamo Bay detainee is not. Being a Navy Seal is at least as much about mental toughness as it is about physical toughness and yet those pussies can only hold out a couple of minutes before they spill their guts. Again, the trainers knew before hand what information they are looking for, you continue to ignore that that does not work in real life as the SERE expert reported. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Now, let me ask you a question. > > Is there anything that would convince you that torture actually works? We have several historical examples, we have the SERE example and all of that just melt away because human rights expert writes a book saying “nuh uh” Again you can indeed tell all that scientists found a cure for cancer in the lab, sure it works there, but it did not work in the field. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/509 "2016-06-29T18:28:07Z")
I would like to address a talking point that keeps popping up again and again in this thread, which is this notion that “The subject will tell the interrogator what the interrogator \*wants \*to hear.” This doesn’t make sense. Here’s why: Assuming that the interrogator wants actual, useful, information (and so I am excluding interrogators who simply want a forced confession,) there is no answer the interrogator particularly \*wants \*to hear. The interrogator wants the _truth_. Suppose for instance that an interrogator knows that Abu Bakhr al-Baghdadi (the leader of ISIS)'s whereabouts has been narrowed down to two locations: either Mosul or Raqqa. In that case, the interrogator, when questioning a subject with knowledge of the terrorist leader’s whereabouts, demanding, “Is al-Baghdadi in Mosul or Raqqa?” has no innate \*preference \*towards a particular answer. The interrogator wants to know which answer is _true_. The interrogator does not \*prefer \*to hear “Mosul” over “Raqqa.” A preference would be pointless; what’s important is what’s true and accurate. If that’s not convincing, let’s try a more mundane example. Suppose that you are traveling to Disneyland and you are at a fork in the road. You have to turn right or turn left. Now you know that only one of these paths is the path that will take you to Disneyland. So you ask someone for directions. You do not have a \*preference \*for “right” over “left.” You do not \*want \*to hear the person say “left” any more than you \*want \*to hear him say “right.” All you care about is, which is the \*correct \*path? A \*want \*or \*preference \*would be meaningless and, frankly, ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/510 "2016-06-29T18:30:34Z")
That’s enough. Next bit that sounds even vaguely insulting from anyone, to anyone, will earn a warning. Multiple ones if you keep it up. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/511 "2016-06-29T18:47:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And yet the only real life evidence we have all points to the fact that torture does in fact work in some cases. And it works 100% of the time in SERE training (and that guy that was involved with SERE training doesn’t even come close to saying what you claim he is saying, it says something about your argument when you have to distort your cites like that). Well, there you go again claiming that I distort cites, what did I distort from what the colonel that worked with SERE said? The colonel also was interviewed by Rachel Maddow and he did affirm again what me and many others are saying. [http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/rachel-maddow-show/2009-04-22](http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/rachel-maddow-show/2009-04-22) > [@](#): > > MADDOW: Can you give us a sense of what the SERE program is and what it‘s for? > > KLEINMAN: Yes. The SERE program is a very, very noble program. It‘s run—designed and run by some of the most incredible patriots you‘d ever want to encounter. But it‘s designed for one purpose, and that is to help our personnel, our military personnel who should find themselves in harm‘s way—allow them to return with honor, by preparing them, introducing them to the worst possible scenarios, including what was once known as the communist interrogation model—something that we learned from the Chinese in the Korean War, from the Soviets-backed show trials. > > MADDOW: How did you learn that SERE school techniques were being reverse-engineered to be used as interrogation methods by American personnel? > > KLEINMAN: My first exposure to that was actually during my deployment to Iraq in 2003. The organization that sent me to Iraq, apparently there was a misconnect between us, but I thought I was going out there as interrogator because I had a lot of experience prior that, that I was representing an organization that did this sort of training, and the idea was that we were going to introduce SERE strategies and methodologies into the repertoire of the interrogators. > > MADDOW: Why would SERE methods be used in an interrogation if they were known to have been designed to elicit false confessions? > > KLEINMAN: See, that‘s where the misunderstanding lies. At the very senior levels of government—surprisingly—the understandings of the complexities of interrogation is rare. It really is. It‘s probably shaped more by the television, “24,” than practitioners of the art. > > There‘s a lot of people who don‘t see—don‘t understand the difference between a model that would train people to resist harsh interrogation and the purpose of that was to compel people to produce propaganda, and intelligence interrogation, which is designed to elicit cooperation intelligence—therefore, timely, accurate and comprehensive intelligence. They‘re very similar. They appear almost similar at the surface, but there‘s very, very profound differences and those two cannot be crossed. > > MADDOW: I know that defenders of the Bush administration‘s interrogation program—and we now have a lot of evidence that it was a program—they say that these harsh techniques, these extreme techniques were only used in extremely controlled circumstances, on a very small number of people by only very highly-trained, skilled personnel, that it was an elite practice in essence. Does that accord with what you saw in Iraq and how you know these techniques were used? > > KLEINMAN: Not at all. First of all, it is not an elite practice. You know, enhanced interrogation technique - that term - would connote an elite program, an advanced program, one conducted by sophisticated practitioners. And nothing can be further from the truth. The best interrogators in this country understand how to interrogate and that‘s largely a relationship-based, culturally-elite finesse approach. > > It‘s systematic and it‘s patient. And that‘s what produces information,\*\* to use, you know, SERE methods or to think that one can use physicality or heavy stress to obtain useful, reliable information is just a misnomer. It‘s not backed up by operational experience, and it is not backed up by one shred of scientific evidence. > \*\* > MADDOW: Col. Steven Kleinman, former military intelligence officer, thank you for your service, sir. And thanks for taking time to talk to us about this tonight. > > KLEIN: Thank you. Thank you for your service as well. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/512 "2016-06-29T19:06:14Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Your statement was that you are not supporting torture, but as usual this betrays the reasoning why you continue with no good support. > > Sorry, but you have not demonstrated that anyone is supporting you in your point that game theory is not a serous way to investigate this issue. Nor you have shown that the evidence found did not confirm that a lot of what theory told us was going to happen. Then you have little to no understanding of what game theory is. > [@](#): > > Again, the trainers knew before hand what information they are looking for, you continue to ignore that that does not work in real life as the SERE expert reported. The SERE expert said no such thing. Unless you are interpreting my claim that torture works to mean “torture ALWAYS works” your article does not support your claim. Those pussy navy SEALS keep giving it up like a cheap whore within a few minutes of waterboarding. Those pussy ass pussies. > [@](#): > > Again you can indeed tell all that scientists found a cure for cancer in the lab, sure it works there, but it did not work in the field. Wait, you’re saying that because the fact that an alcohol solution can kill cancer cells in a petri dish means that any facts that comes from a controlled experiment have no meaning? You might as well just say fuck science. Your attempts to rehabilitate the reputation of those pussy Navy SEALS that couldn’t even put up with even a few minutes of torture before giving up information are monumental failures. > **[A brief note on killing cancer cells in a dish](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-brief-note-on-killing-cancer-cells-in-a-dish/)** > > I am taking the Memorial Day holiday off. I will return next week (or even earlier if something comes up that I can't resist blogging about). In the meantime, here's a general principle that needs to ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/513 "2016-06-29T19:15:27Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, there you go again claiming that I distort cites, what did I distort from what the colonel that worked with SERE said? > > The colonel also was interviewed by Rachel Maddow and he did affirm again what me and many others are saying. > > [http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/rachel-maddow-show/2009-04-22](http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/rachel-maddow-show/2009-04-22) Just to be clear, this is a different cite. This cite says: "to think that one can use physicality or heavy stress to obtain useful, reliable information is just a misnomer. It‘s not backed up by operational experience, and it is not backed up by one shred of scientific evidence. " And on the other hand we have folks who have actually used torture to elicit information say that it works. I guess we should just go with Rachel Maddow’s guest on this one. :rolleyes: Like I said many many times, your reliance on opinion and anecdote is feeble in the face of factual evidence that torture can indeed work. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/514 "2016-06-29T19:18:48Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > That’s enough. Next bit that sounds even vaguely insulting from anyone, to anyone, will earn a warning. Multiple ones if you keep it up. Wait, does this include insulting those pussy ass Navy SEALS? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/515 "2016-06-29T19:54:10Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > This doesn’t make sense. Here’s why: > > Assuming that the interrogator wants actual, useful, information (and so I am excluding interrogators who simply want a forced confession,) there is no answer the interrogator particularly \*wants \*to hear. The interrogator wants the _truth_. meh The interrogator wants evidence that will support his own theories as buttressed by confirmation bias. In a theoretical way, he or she probably does want “truth,” but since the torture is going to continue until an answer matches the theory that the interrogator holds, it will continue until either the victim gives an answer that the interrogator likes or until the victim can no longer continue. If the victim happens to give up information that the interrogator likes, (whether it be accurate or not), then the torture stops (for that time). If the information happens to be true, the interrogator concludes (and declares) that “torture works,” and if it turns out to be false, it is either ignored or the victim is declared to have been a tougher nut to crack than expected, (possibly triggering more torture). Certainly there are people who have given up correct information under torture. Given the number of victims who have given up false information, however, it remains a crap shoot whether any information obtained under torture is legitimate and that unknown and unpredictable level of false information indicates that it is false to claim that torture works. A significant buttress to the idiotic decision to wage war against Iraq was “information” obtained under torture–even though the victim, in a different setting without torture, had already stated that Iraq had nothing to do with the WTC/Pentagon attack. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/516 "2016-06-29T20:02:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Just to be clear, this is a different cite. This cite says: > > "to think that one can use physicality or heavy stress to obtain useful, reliable information is just a misnomer. It‘s not backed up by operational experience, and it is not backed up by one shred of scientific evidence. " > > And on the other hand we have folks who have actually used torture to elicit information say that it works. I guess we should just go with Rachel Maddow’s guest on this one. :rolleyes: We already know that “on the other hand” the one that you pointed out as supporting your point came later declaring that “Torture does not work”; again, he saw the evidence. It is a different cite alright, but it is the same colonel. Demonstrating that I did not distort what he said, as usual context is the key and it is clear that you were wrong in your attempt at impugning what I noted that expert was saying all along. Indeed, there is no shred of scientific evidence that you are correct because SERE is not useful to gain intelligence in real life. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Like I said many many times, your reliance on opinion and anecdote is feeble in the face of factual evidence that torture can indeed work. And as mentioned you are wrong for relying on SERE as a panacea for your argument, it is indeed like an argument that thermite explains everything in 9/11. In SERE training the point is that torture is effective to gain false confessions or a tool to gain useful propaganda to support reprehensible acts by a government. Not useful to gain reliable information. [http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/torturingdemocracy/interviews/malcolm\_nance.html](http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/torturingdemocracy/interviews/malcolm_nance.html) > [@](#): > > Waterboarding is a demonstration tool. It is not a punishment. It is not intended to be a torture. It’s an inoculation tool. But more to the point, it’s a demonstrator. > > **When torture is applied, and right at the top of our torture slide, in our resistance lesson is why torture does not work. And the first line of that PowerPoint is, it’s completely ineffective. Once a person learns what is coming, they gain the ability to resist. Even if it’s just a little bit** > > And so waterboarding is a demonstrator to show just how an evil totalitarian nation can use one of many, many different tortures. And there are some horrible, horrible tortures out there. Waterboarding’s a mild one, but it’s equally as stressful. But it demonstrates that they have the ability to put you in a situation where you will comply. > > \*\*Now, complying does not necessarily mean – does not necessarily mean that you’re giving the truth. You’re giving an answer. And an answer can be anything. It can be a truth, a half-truth, a lie, a medley of all three in the same sentence. You know? And – but we want to demonstrate to a student that there are ways that the enemy can bring you beyond your ability to resist. Waterboarding is just one of those ways. It’s a good way. It’s very fast. So when I hear people debate – and I don’t like to use the word debate, but when I hear people debate torture, and they say, well, waterboarding is effective. > > Well, no. Waterboarding has the ability to make you talk. It does not have the ability to give you intelligence. You can say information, and there are some brilliant, brilliant documents which were written by captives, most notably Commander Lloyd Bucher, who was the commander of the USS Pueblo, an intelligence collector that was brought into North Korea. Where they broke him. I mean they – they thought they broke him. Broke is not a technical term of art. It just means that they got him to comply with something after torturing him and his men for almost a year. > > And they got a signed biographical confession of every aspect of his movement of his intelligence collection ship. However, he was ordered by Fleet Admiral Barney Google, and if anybody from that period knows, Barney Google was a cartoon character. \*\*It would be like ordered around by Admiral Doonesbury or, you know [laughs] – I mean – and his confession was the most hilarious thing you would ever read. I mean it was beyond fabrication. I mean he must have had a stroke of literary genius. And must have just enjoyed laughing in his little cell at how he got over on the North Koreans. > > They thought they had a full confession. But he didn’t break. He gave. And what he gave, he made them work for. They tortured him horribly. But what they got was a person who apparently complied and gave up nothing. I mean other than the fact that Fleet Admiral Barney Google was so secret that he was unknown even to the officers of the US Navy or his staff. -Malcolm Nance is a former master instructor and chief of training at the U.S. Navy’s Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape school, who has himself been waterboarded as part of the training. A long-time intelligence specialist who speaks five languages, including Arabic, Nance has been deployed on counterterrorism operations in the Balkans, the Middle East and sub-Saharan Africa. Now retired from the Navy, Nance is the author of the 2007 book, The Terrorists of Iraq: Inside the Strategy and Tactics of the Iraq Insurgency, and is a counterterrorism consultant based in Washington, D.C. He is also a contributor to the online site, Small Wars Journal. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/517 "2016-06-29T20:41:04Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > meh > The interrogator wants evidence that will support his own theories as buttressed by confirmation bias. In a theoretical way, he or she probably does want “truth,” but since the torture is going to continue until an answer matches the theory that the interrogator holds, it will continue until either the victim gives an answer that the interrogator likes or until the victim can no longer continue. > > If the victim happens to give up information that the interrogator likes, (whether it be accurate or not), then the torture stops (for that time). If the information happens to be true, the interrogator concludes (and declares) that “torture works,” and if it turns out to be false, it is either ignored or the victim is declared to have been a tougher nut to crack than expected, (possibly triggering more torture). > > Certainly there are people who have given up correct information under torture. Given the number of victims who have given up false information, however, it remains a crap shoot whether any information obtained under torture is legitimate and that unknown and unpredictable level of false information indicates that it is false to claim that torture works. Are you under the impression that torture produces information less frequently than other forms of interrogation? > [@](#): > > A significant buttress to the idiotic decision to wage war against Iraq was “information” obtained under torture–even though the victim, in a different setting without torture, had already stated that Iraq had nothing to do with the WTC/Pentagon attack. Sure, torture can be abused. And reports of tubes bought in Africa can be misinterpreted. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/518 "2016-06-29T20:45:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Are you under the impression that torture produces information less frequently than other forms of interrogation? Torture produces incorrect or invalid information more frequently than other means of interrogation. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Sure, torture can be abused. And reports of tubes bought in Africa can be misinterpreted. Pointing to the ways in which hand-picked public relations flacks with no intelligence training “misinterpreted” the presence of tubes that were the wrong size, made of the wrong materials to be used for uranium enrichment is not really doing anything to bolster your case. The issue is not that torture “can be” abused, it is that its use is abuse and it produces far too many false reports to make it worthwhile as a source of information. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/519 "2016-06-29T20:54:46Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > We already know that “on the other hand” the one that you pointed out as supporting your point came later declaring that “Torture does not work”; again, he saw the evidence. And other do not. You cannot rely on anecdote to say that torture doesn’t work any more than I can rely on anecdote to support the notion that all other forms of torture do not work unless I am arguing that torture ALWAYS works. > [@](#): > > It is a different cite alright, but it is the same colonel. Demonstrating that I did not distort what he said, as usual context is the key and it is clear that you were wrong in your attempt at impugning what I noted that expert was saying all along. Indeed, there is no shred of scientific evidence that you are correct because SERE is not useful to gain intelligence in real life. Your original cite didn’t say what you said he said. perhaps you had linked to the wrong cite but your original cite did not support your argument. > [@](#): > > And as mentioned you are wrong for relying on SERE as a panacea for your argument, it is indeed like an argument that thermite explains everything in 9/11. In SERE training the point is that torture is effective to gain false confessions or a tool to gain useful propaganda to support reprehensible acts by a government. Not useful to gain reliable information. In what way is torture (properly applied) less reliable than other methods of interrogation? Does asking nicely work more reliably? YOU seem to be arguing against the notion that torture ALWAYS works, you are actually supposed to be supporting the argument that torture never works. Its a lot easier to argue against the first than to support the latter. > [@](#): > > [http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/torturingdemocracy/interviews/malcolm\_nance.html](http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/torturingdemocracy/interviews/malcolm_nance.html) > > -Malcolm Nance is a former master instructor and chief of training at the U.S. Navy’s Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape school, who has himself been waterboarded as part of the training. A long-time intelligence specialist who speaks five languages, including Arabic, Nance has been deployed on counterterrorism operations in the Balkans, the Middle East and sub-Saharan Africa. Now retired from the Navy, Nance is the author of the 2007 book, The Terrorists of Iraq: Inside the Strategy and Tactics of the Iraq Insurgency, and is a counterterrorism consultant based in Washington, D.C. He is also a contributor to the online site, Small Wars Journal. Noone is arguing that torture cannot produce false information. Any form of interrogation can produce false information. Unlike asking nicely, torture almost always produces something and that something might not be reliable but asking nicely won’t always get you better information faster. IOW, who gives a shit about opinions and anecdotes. For every opinion or anecdote you offer I can offer one from someone that says torture can be effectively used. You cannot establish that torture doesn’t work with a few anecdotes and opinions. I can establish that torture works at least sometimes with anecdotal information. And in the case of SERE training, it worked ~100% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/520 "2016-06-29T21:01:27Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Torture produces incorrect or invalid information more frequently than other means of interrogation. I agree with that. If you are torturing someone who doesn’t know anything, they will make shit up to stop the torture. That doesn’t mean that torture produces less information than other methods of interrogation. > [@](#): > > Pointing to the ways in which hand-picked public relations flacks with no intelligence training “misinterpreted” the presence of tubes that were the wrong size, made of the wrong materials to be used for uranium enrichment is not really doing anything to bolster your case. Of course it does. GIGO is pointing to the false confessions extracted under torture as an example of how torture has harmed our interests. I don’t think that anyone that wasn’t already determined to find that connection would have relied on that extracted information to go to war. Torture isn’t why we invaded Iraq. > [@](#): > > The issue is not that torture “can be” abused, it is that its use is abuse and it produces far too many false reports to make it worthwhile as a source of information. That is an opinion and you are entitled to it but there is a history of torture being used effectively. Whether it is the French in Algeria or Navy SERE training. Perhaps we are not doing it right but that’s not because torture doesn’t work, its because we suck at it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656.md?page=27)