# Torture doesn't work **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656 "2016-03-30T17:53:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/541 "2016-07-05T02:08:03Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > For the people who claim that torture doesn’t work, how _truly confident_ are you in it? Would you, in a real-life situation, feel truly, securely, confident about that premise? > (Some may glibly reply “Yes” for the sake of being glib, but I am asking for genuine, serious responses. Imagine that the penalty for the wrong assumption - in a real life your-fellow-spy-was-captured situation, for instance - could mean \*your own \*capture and death next.) I might have an emotion-driven desire to hurt someone whose silence might cause harm to me or mine. However, if we turn the question back on you, what is your considered answer? Knowing that torture has produced false intel that has led to horrendous errors in judgment, would you really wish to rely on torture to produce the information that would save you and yours? Or would you just be happy that even though your information was worthless or even counterproductive, at least you made someone suffer for it? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/542 "2016-07-05T19:45:15Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Your sarcasm is noted, as is your fixation on repeating such sarcasm that was dumb when first applied. The losing side of an argument frequently finds sarcasm dumb. Just switch sides and you can be on the winning side of the argument too. > [@](#): > > That out of the way, a training exercise is not real life, regardless how often you repeat the claim or make up reasons to invest it with more importance than it has. You have not demonstrated how the fact that it was a training exercise makes the fact that torture can extract information from pussy ass Navy SEALS within a matter of minutes any less relevant. Just because you can make a distinction does mean the difference is enough to make the 100% success rate meaningless. > [@](#): > > We know that a number of tortures resulted in bad information being given to the CIA in the run up to Bush’s War. Sure, torture can be abused to extract false confessions and shit like that. So what? Torture can also be used to punish political dissidents. The effect of torture when it is not being used to extract information says nothing about its ability to extract information. > [@](#): > > Whether those were the result of the victim carefully handing out bad information or the interrogators insisting on torturing the victim until they heard what they wanted to hear, the torture resulted in false intel. In the first case the method of interrogation doesn’t matter, in the second case, the interrogators are not doing it right. > [@](#): > > I don’t care how many people in the U.S. military gave in to torture during a training exercise. Your “100%” claim is misleading because it implies that the torture would result in good information at (nearly) 100% of the time and we already know that that is false. Please cite where I imply that torture leads to good information 100% of the time. I expressly state several times throughout this thread that torture is NOT a silver bullet. I expressly state several times throughout this thread that torture can be abused to extract false confessions and to intimidate political dissidents. I expressly state that torture cannot extract information that the prisoner does not have. I expressly state that torture will extract bad information from prisoners who don’t have any information because they don’t have any good information to give. If you are reading my reference to those pussy ass Navy SEALS succumbing to torture 100% of the time to imply that torture has a 100% success rate whenever it is applied, then you are reading things that I am not writing. But when Pussy ass Navy SEALS have information and we apply torture to those pussy ass Navy SEALS, those pussy ass Navy SEALS seem to give up that information 100% of the time within minutes of the torture being applied to those pussy ass Navy SEALS. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/543 "2016-07-05T19:54:53Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The fact that is more stubborn is that the very same people that worked with SERE reported that it is not a tool to gain information, but to resist torture. Indeed you are resorting to a talking point that only a conspiracy theorist would be proud to use, but it is clear that it is the only pathetic one you have left. Your “fact” is actually opinion. It is clear to everyone reading this thread that I am stating a fact (100% of pussy ass Navy SEALS succumb to torture within minutes of torture being applied) and you are stating the opinion of others (this one dude who worked in the SERE program says its only a training exercise). > [@](#): > > And clearly you do not care at all that there were NAVY seal instructors (Malcom Nance) that already told all how off base you are. Clearly you will also toss them under the bus if you had the chance, but sadly for you they already convinced most in power that they are correct and you are wrong. Once again, you try to paint me as being in favor of the use of torture. I think torture is horrible but I don’t think we need to engage in wishful thinking to prevent torture. Once again, these are opinion. Expert opinions to be sure but there are plenty of expert opinions saying the opposite about torture. Or is the CIA not a valid expert on the use of torture? > [@](#): > > The ARMY also would like to tell you that your insistance of using SERE to justify your “not even wrong” point is being used out of context and usually a failure to gain intelligence. > > [http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/torturingdemocracy/interviews/brittain\_mallow.html](http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/torturingdemocracy/interviews/brittain_mallow.html) > > Indeed, using SERE to justify the idea that torture works is using a training tool out of context and it only makes your points look really dumb. How does the fact that SERE training is only make believe make the success rate likely to increase? If you are a Navy SEAL and you KNOW they won’t kill you are you more likely to give up or less likely to give up? You can call it dumb all you want. But facts are stubborn things. 100% of pussy ass navy SEALS that undergo SERE training succumb to torture within minutes of the torture being applied. Sure, its a controlled environment and the interrogator KNOWS that the pussy ass Navy SEAL has the information he wants and he has the ability to rapidly determine if the information is correct but ultimately those pussy ass Navy SEALS are unable to resist the torture whereas they might be able to resist other forms of interrogation for more than a few minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/544 "2016-07-05T20:02:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’s also worth noting that the scenario he’s bringing up is highly unlikely to be terribly useful when determining how to interrogate individuals in the context he’s talking about. > > To add to what you’re saying, though you might disagree, FWIW, having talked to people who were “tortured” both by SAVAK in Iran and at the Hanoi Hilton in Vietnam, yes when you put a person through an ocean of pain until they’ll tell you what you want to hear, they’ll tell you. However, those people I talked to weren’t being asked to give up valuable military information that they might or might not have or that could or couldn’t be confirmed right away, they were being asked to sign “confessions” to various “war crimes” or appear in propaganda videos or something similar. Yes, torture can certainly be misused (and frequently IS misused) and torture isn’t a silver bullet that will work in every situation. But its wishful thinking to say it doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/545 "2016-07-05T20:14:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Hey no problem. > > FWIW, I’ve certainly heard of “psychological pressure techniques” working which sound essentially like torture to me, unless one wants to a la John Yoo start drastically redefining how people view torture, but certainly the type of torture that Damuri seems to be describing works only for propaganda purposes or in situations that are unlikely to come up in real life and that allied interrogators are unlikely to encounter. Wait, are you saying that waterboarding ONLY works for extracting propaganda driven confessions, etc? It may be that we will rarely be in a position where we KNOW that a prisoner knows something and be in a position to quickly determine the accuracy of that thing but it is not a null set. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/546 "2016-07-05T20:17:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And I could ask the same of you concerning the use of mindreaders and other woosters to gather information: Imagine the penalty if you assume that they are _all_ full of crap-_Dare_ you take that chance in a real life-or-death situation? If you captured someone who knew that I was a secret agent and I had full confidence in his loyalty and full confidence that you would not torture him (not just that you say you don’t torture people but that you actually in fact don’t torture people), I would consider completing my mission. If I knew you would torture him, I would get out of town as quickly as I could. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/547 "2016-07-05T20:25:35Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I might have an emotion-driven desire to hurt someone whose silence might cause harm to me or mine. > > However, if we turn the question back on you, what is your considered answer? Knowing that torture has produced false intel that has led to horrendous errors in judgment, would you really wish to rely on torture to produce the information that would save you and yours? Or would you just be happy that even though your information was worthless or even counterproductive, at least you made someone suffer for it? What interrogation method would you rely on to produce that reliable information? What if the prisoner is a fanatic that refuses to respond to you or acknowledge your existence? My wife does this to me all the fucking time and no amount of cajoling or enticement can get her to say a fucking word until she is good and ready. \*that last part was jus a joke… sorta. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/548 "2016-07-06T03:03:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Your “fact” is actually opinion. It is clear to everyone reading this thread that I am stating a fact (100% of pussy ass Navy SEALS succumb to torture within minutes of torture being applied) and you are stating the opinion of others (this one dude who worked in the SERE program says its only a training exercise). You are still not getting it. No one is saying that you are wrong on that, you are wrong on applying a training tool to real life. The rhetoric you are using does fail spectacularly. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Once again, you try to paint me as being in favor of the use of torture. I think torture is horrible but I don’t think we need to engage in wishful thinking to prevent torture. > > Once again, these are opinion. Expert opinions to be sure but there are plenty of expert opinions saying the opposite about torture. Or is the CIA not a valid expert on the use of torture? The CIA failed to gain intelligence on the whole by using the reverse of SERE. [http://thinkprogress.org/report/why-enhanced-interrogation-failed/](http://thinkprogress.org/report/why-enhanced-interrogation-failed/) > [@](#): > > ``` > Former CIA Interrogator: Information from torture is unreliable. > “[Coercive techniques] didn’t provide useful, meaningful, trustworthy information…Everyone was deeply concerned and most felt it was un-American and did not work.” [Glenn L. Carle, a retired C.I.A. officer who oversaw the interrogation of a high-level detainee in 2002, New York Times, 5/03/11] > > ``` > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How does the fact that SERE training is only make believe make the success rate likely to increase? If you are a Navy SEAL and you KNOW they won’t kill you are you more likely to give up or less likely to give up? You tell me, the reality is that the SERE people involved did not report on what or how they confessed and there was the case of the tortured sailors that was used in part to create SERE, where they reported that they guys confessed alright, but it was to tell the commies that Barnie Google was their commander. So it is more likely that you have gone with the 100% result based on a urban rumor or as pointed before to results that can not be applicable in real life as what they did in real life was not really SERE, just like a few of your bits of “evidence” presented by you. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You can call it dumb all you want. But facts are stubborn things. 100% of pussy ass navy SEALS that undergo SERE training succumb to torture within minutes of the torture being applied. Sure, its a controlled environment and the interrogator KNOWS that the pussy ass Navy SEAL has the information he wants and he has the ability to rapidly determine if the information is correct but ultimately those pussy ass Navy SEALS are unable to resist the torture whereas they might be able to resist other forms of interrogation for more than a few minutes. As noted before, it is becoming clear that you do not even have support for that 100% number. In any case you are still using the SERE training item out of context and that is a fact. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/549 "2016-07-06T03:12:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Wait, are you saying that waterboarding ONLY works for extracting propaganda driven confessions, etc? That is the context of SERE training, and you are still running around not figuring that out. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/550 "2016-07-06T03:37:36Z")
BTW the 100% success rate is indeed referring to controlled environments; indeed, pushing SERE in real life is taking a tool for training to resist torture and turning the success in the lab into a urban rumor when applied to real life. > **[How Waterboarding Got the Green Light from Bush](https://www.newsweek.com/how-waterboarding-got-green-light-bush-83445)** > > How waterboarding got the green light from Bush. > [@](#): > > The Senate Armed Services report concludes that waterboarding and other harsh interrogation techniques—including forcing detainees to stand naked, subjecting them to growling dogs and depriving them of sleep—were discussed by top members of the National Security Council and other senior administration officials inside the White House. Some officials expressed strong concerns about the legality of the methods. But the techniques were ultimately given the green light, based on government assessments that showed such methods were quick and effective in breaking down the resistance of U.S. military officers who were subjected to them in so-called Survival Evasion Resistance and Escape (SERE) classes. > > “Use of the watering board resulted in student capitulation and compliance 100 percent of the time,” wrote Jerald F. Ogrisseg, the Air Force’s chief of psychology services, in a July 24, 2002 memo released as part of the Senate report. (Ogrisseg later testified he adviced his superiors that waterboarding would be “illegal” if actually used against detainees.) But the report concludes that the use of these techniques against Al Qaeda detainees “damaged our ability to collect accurate intelligence that could save lives, strengthened the hand of our enemies and compromised our moral authority.” And one simple reason is that, as was pointed many times before, in real life the ones torturing do not know before hand what information they are looking for; or more damningly, the ones being tortured do comply by confessing what the torturers want to hear. Reverse engineering SERE leads to what SERE was made to train for. The torture then results into the compliance the communists expected to see for propaganda purpouses. Purposes that had little to do with gaining information. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/551 "2016-07-06T03:43:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If you captured someone who knew that I was a secret agent and I had full confidence in his loyalty and full confidence that you would not torture him (not just that you say you don’t torture people but that you actually in fact don’t torture people), I would consider completing my mission. If I knew you would torture him, I would get out of town as quickly as I could. In what universe is that a response to the question I asked? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/552 "2016-07-06T07:10:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What interrogation method would you rely on to produce that reliable information? > > What if the prisoner is a fanatic that refuses to respond to you or acknowledge your existence? My wife does this to me all the fucking time and no amount of cajoling or enticement can get her to say a fucking word until she is good and ready. > > \*that last part was jus a joke… sorta. I am not a trained interrogator, so I have no glib response regarding what technique I would use. However, since real life is not scripted by Cochran and Surnow, I will acknowledge the statements of members of Army Intelligence and the FBI that torture is the wrong approach against the claims of a handful of CIA guys who ignored the statements of people who knew what they were doing and used torture to extract false information. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/553 "2016-07-06T09:36:18Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How does the fact that SERE training is only make believe make the success rate likely to increase? If you are a Navy SEAL and you KNOW they won’t kill you are you more likely to give up or less likely to give up? Of course you’re more likely to give up. 1. you know the instructor knows what he wants you to say and he knows that you know. So you know he won’t stop until you say exactly it 2. you know nothing bad will happen to you if you do say it, in fact you know for a fact the exercise will stop then 3. you know there’s no point in not saying it, as it just means the exercise continues 4. it’s just a game. There are no consequences either way. You do not get points for lasting one more minute, but you might get seriously hurt. 5. you’re not paid enough for this shit Compare to a real torture sesh where the interrogator can’t assess the truth of what you say, will keep torturing you no matter what you say “just to be sure” and might just kill you once they deem you’re past your usefulness to them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/554 "2016-07-06T14:33:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You are still not getting it. No one is saying that you are wrong on that, you are wrong on applying a training tool to real life. The rhetoric you are using does fail spectacularly. You keep telling yourself that. It is clear that in the face of stubborn facts, you are choosing to ignore them as irrelevant when they are pretty squarely on point. > [@](#): > > The CIA failed to gain intelligence on the whole by using the reverse of SERE. > > [http://thinkprogress.org/report/why-enhanced-interrogation-failed/](http://thinkprogress.org/report/why-enhanced-interrogation-failed/) Really? What did the director of the CIA appointed by Bill Clinton have to say about that? [http://ciasavedlives.com/statements.html](http://ciasavedlives.com/statements.html) But sure, let have a battle of opinions to determine facts. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > You tell me, the reality is that the SERE people involved did not report on what or how they confessed and there was the case of the tortured sailors that was used in part to create SERE, where they reported that they guys confessed alright, but it was to tell the commies that Barnie Google was their commander. So it is more likely that you have gone with the 100% result based on a urban rumor or as pointed before to results that can not be applicable in real life as what they did in real life was not really SERE, just like a few of your bits of “evidence” presented by you. Where do I EVER say that torture is 100% effective outside of the highly controlled circumstances we see in SERE training? But those very controlled circumstances do not make the 100% success rate at extracting information from pussy ass Navy SEALS irrelevant. You seem to think that these controlled circumstances makes the 100% success rate of extracting information from pussy ass Navy SEALS irrelevant because we don’t encounter those exact same circumstances with any frequency in real life. > [@](#): > > As noted before, it is becoming clear that you do not even have support for that 100% number. In any case you are still using the SERE training item out of context and that is a fact. I am pretty sure I have cited several sources for the 100% rate (or near enough to 100%). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/555 "2016-07-06T14:34:21Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That is the context of SERE training, and you are still running around not figuring that out. So the information being extracted from those pussy ass Navy SEALS are supposed to be propaganda? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/556 "2016-07-06T14:36:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > BTW the 100% success rate is indeed referring to controlled environments; indeed, pushing SERE in real life is taking a tool for training to resist torture and turning the success in the lab into a urban rumor when applied to real life. > > [How Waterboarding Got the Green Light from Bush - Newsweek](http://www.newsweek.com/how-waterboarding-got-green-light-bush-83445) > And one simple reason is that, as was pointed many times before, in real life the ones torturing do not know before hand what information they are looking for; or more damningly, the ones being tortured do comply by confessing what the torturers want to hear. > > Reverse engineering SERE leads to what SERE was made to train for. The torture then results into the compliance the communists expected to see for propaganda purpouses. Purposes that had little to do with gaining information. Your cite does not support your statement. See where it says that waterboarding was used by the CIA because it was so fucking effective? The rest of the stuff is mostly moral arguments that you are trying to circumvent by claiming that torture doesn’t work so we don’t have to worry about morality. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/557 "2016-07-06T14:38:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In what universe is that a response to the question I asked? I wouldn’t give a shit if you had mindreaders. I would continue the mission as long as I knew you didn’t torture your prisoners as long as the mission was something I could complete in a few days. If you tortured prisoners, then I would leave town within minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/558 "2016-07-06T14:40:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not a trained interrogator, so I have no glib response regarding what technique I would use. However, since real life is not scripted by Cochran and Surnow, I will acknowledge the statements of members of Army Intelligence and the FBI that torture is the wrong approach against the claims of a handful of CIA guys who ignored the statements of people who knew what they were doing and used torture to extract false information. You are choosing to believe one set of opinions that closely aligns with your deeply held beliefs and I am choosing another set of opinions that more closely aligns with the facts. As long as you understand that is what you are doing. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/559 "2016-07-06T14:40:55Z")
If it is dertmined that getting information will save lives and the information needs to be gotten quickly I think it is justified. I mostly say this because the troops have been known to turn prisoners over to the locals who are on our side and from what i understand not much torture is needed before they start talking. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656/560 "2016-07-06T14:50:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But sure, let have a battle of opinions to determine facts. :rolleyes: You are the one doing that. And failing at that as usual. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Where do I EVER say that torture is 100% effective outside of the highly controlled circumstances we see in SERE training? But those very controlled circumstances do not make the 100% success rate at extracting information from pussy ass Navy SEALS irrelevant. You seem to think that these controlled circumstances makes the 100% success rate of extracting information from pussy ass Navy SEALS irrelevant because we don’t encounter those exact same circumstances with any frequency in real life. Where do you ever? Right away in your following reply: > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Your cite does not support your statement. See where it says that waterboarding was used by the CIA because it was so fucking effective? The rest of the stuff is mostly moral arguments that you are trying to circumvent by claiming that torture doesn’t work so we don’t have to worry about morality. You are indeed shoe horning training with real conditions, that is your urban rumor. You are still attempting to make the certified dumb move to use that 100% artificial result and move it to the reality one in the discussion like if we were in a universe that forgets what sorry move you continue to make. The reverse use of SERE does not work as even the SERE experts reported. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I am pretty sure I have cited several sources for the 100% rate (or near enough to 100%). And I did too, the reality was that the one making that claim was using also his opinion. An opinion that ignored the failures of reverse SERE used in real life. Because that fact is also ignored by you, whatever they reverse engineered and used was not SERE but the torture used to gain compliance by dictatorships or bad administrations for propaganda purposes. Not useful as information gathering. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-doesnt-work/750656.md?page=29)