# Torture is Most Likely Very Effective **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098 "2009-04-23T14:22:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/161 "2009-04-27T19:56:35Z")
Were you ever really interested in debating this topic? I can’t figure out why you would start this discussion if you didn’t want to argue for or against any positions. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/162 "2009-04-27T20:01:31Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Were you ever really interested in debating this topic? I can’t figure out why you would start this discussion if you didn’t want to argue for or against any positions. I was interested in whether there was or wasn’t any hard evidence. I doubted if there was any, because of the nature of the subject, and this seems to have been born out in the ensuing discussion. (Although I thought it would be a shorter discussion, as noted in the OP.) For the most part, through over three pages of posts, there’s very little that anyone cited that wasn’t raised and addressed in the OP, although many people give the impression that they did not actually read it. But there were some cites that had some merit, I have to grant. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/163 "2009-04-27T20:02:45Z")
> [@](#): > > All I said - for what seems like the zillionth time - is that there’s a dearth of hard information and in the absence of this we are left with opinions, and mine is that it likely works, for reasons enumerated. So, again: WHAT WOULD YOU ACCEPT AS HARD EVIDENCE? Jesus Christ, four pages of this dreck, and you have yet to do the very, very basic courtesy of setting the terms for the “debate,” or whatever this is. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/164 "2009-04-27T20:07:18Z")
> [@Beadalin](#): > > So, again: WHAT WOULD YOU ACCEPT AS HARD EVIDENCE? Evidence that supports his point that torture works, of course. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/165 "2009-04-27T20:14:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’ve discussed the weight of evidence in my opinion in the OP. So, you have no hard evidence to back your assertion. The side opposed to the effectiveness of torture have no hard facts to support their assertion. But all evidence to this point seems to indicate, rather strongly (note first bulleted point from study above not to mention the numerous other cites throughout this thread) that torture is not an effective means to gain information. Yet you maintain the “weight of the evidence is in favor of it being effective” (your words). The mind boggles. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/166 "2009-04-27T20:35:28Z")
> [@Beadalin](#): > > WHAT WOULD YOU ACCEPT AS HARD EVIDENCE? Same standards of evidence as any other issue. My objections to the evidence here would apply elsewhere as well. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The mind boggles. I guess that kind of sums it up. Nothing to add. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/167 "2009-04-27T20:36:29Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Same standards of evidence as any other issue. … which are? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/168 "2009-04-27T20:43:45Z")
Some sort of unbiased comparison of the results produced these methodologies. What do _you_ think counts as hard evidence as a general rule? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/169 "2009-04-27T20:50:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Some sort of unbiased comparison of the results produced these methodologies. > > What do _you_ think counts as hard evidence as a general rule? Why do you think the weight of evidence supports your conjecture that torture is effective? There may not be hard-and-fast studies of this but all they can glean from what they DO know points to it not being an effective means of information gathering. Why should your conjectures in the OP trump the analysis of numerous experts in the field who disagree with you? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/170 "2009-04-27T20:53:42Z")
Again, there are also other experts who do agree with me, and you are wrong for excluding experts who don’t agree with you from the equation. I believe that most experts in total think it’s effective, and even more likely, most experts who don’t have moral or other practical issues with it think it’s effective. We are going round and round with this and I don’t think it’s getting anywhere, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/171 "2009-04-27T20:57:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [re: John McCain signing a confession of being an air pirate]What I find exasperating is that people like you ignore the fact that i’ve repeatedly addressed this very point (if not the specific cite) beginning with the OP. > > Yes you can torture people into anything, if that’s your goal. The effective use of torture would be if that’s not your goal. Reread the OP. You said: “a person being tortured will tend to admit to anything that he thinks will stop the torture. This is undoubtedly true.” John McCain admitted to being an air pirate. Please tell me. Was this an example of a successful interrogation using torture? Why or why not? Heck, you could even answer this from the perspectives of each of the parties to the torture, including the North Vietnamese government, the torturer, John McCain, and the US Government. You may think that each of them may have different opinions. Just please explain your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/172 "2009-04-27T21:07:15Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Again, there are also other experts who do agree with me, and you are wrong for excluding experts who don’t agree with you from the equation. This coming from the guy who won’t count any affidavits from people who haven’t used torture. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I believe that most experts in total think it’s effective Then present evidence to that effect. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > and even more likely, most experts who don’t have moral or other practical issues with it think it’s effective. Anybody who does not have a moral problem with torture is either ignorant or a sociopath. Neither perspective is useful here. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > We are going round and round with this and I don’t think it’s getting anywhere, sorry. Because you’ve made it clear from the start that you don’t care what anybody says if they disagree with you. When challenged, you just keep saying “I believe”. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/173 "2009-04-27T22:27:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s probably a valid source. I was unaware of that. > > [However](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR2009042403171_2.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2009042403231)So the position you cite was not anything like a concensus of the SERE people. Jesus Haploid Christ, what do you expect ? There is no such thing as a consensus where inexact sciences are concerned. No theory is accepted as true by everyone in the field. Welcome to science. Only in math can something categorically and without the shade of a doubt be declared true or false. You have been given tons of expert opinions. You have been given tons of _logical reasons_ why torture isn’t a useful tool. You wanted a cite from unbiased people who did examine torture closely and didn’t opine that it was a good method, which has been provided. The majority of the SERE people do… and still you point to the two that didn’t to give you an excuse to cling to your belief ? Would you consider anything less than a handwritten note from God saying “Thou shallt not torture, for verily twisting thy brethren’s genitals is as efficient a method to reach my Truth as twisting your own. PS : I really do exist” to constitute conclusive evidence ? Speaking of God, I wonder : are you into the whole “teaching the controversy” thing ? Because you must realize you are using the exact same arguments. Here’s a starting point you might want to consider and understand before speaking further : the statement “neither theory can be categorically proven nor disproven, thus both are equally valid” is a false statement. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/174 "2009-04-27T22:50:03Z")
So **Fotheringay-Phipps** It’s your opinion that the torturers of the Tonton Macoote, Khmer Rouge, KGB and Gestapo were _quiet_ about their activities? Your basing this opinion on what exactly? The fact that they all wanted to be known as kind and humane? The fact that their leaders weren’t mass murdering sociopaths? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/175 "2009-04-27T22:58:24Z")
Maybe this whole thread is hung up on the word “effective”. Has anyone ever truthfully confessed to something while being tortured? Almost certainly. I still wouldn’t call it effective. There are links in this thread that say other methods work better (but only if you’re not torturing, so it is an either-or choice). And the likelihood of false confessions makes it useless (if you have to corroborate information through other means, why bother with the torture). What torture is effective for is for those who wish to do evil to cover their own asses. Want to put someone to death? Just get them to confess to something. If you think you already know everything, you can use torture to confirm it. If you really want to learn, you can’t. Oh, yeah, it’s also a repugnant practice that shames those who practice it or allow it. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/176 "2009-04-27T23:28:32Z")
> [@](#): > > (In addition, I imagine a lot of the confessed witches were in fact witches. I believe you’ve confused your own disbelief in the power of witchcraft with the beliefs of the accused witches themselves.) In the case of the Salem witches, it’s pretty likely that some people were indeed practicing witchcraft, and it’s virtually certain that many more practced “household magic”. (See, for instance, Chadwick Hansen’s book _Witchcraft in Salem_ for the evidence. There have been a lot of reliable historica;l books in the past twenty years by historians on Colonial magical practice.) But it’s extremely unlikely that the huge numbers of people accused and imprisoned were witches in any way. Sarah Good, Rebecca Nurse, and notably pressed-to-death Giles Corey were almost certainly not practicing malicious witchcraft. Yet the threat of torture or of being jailed (more of a hardship than it sounds – among other things, you had to pay your own board, while being unable to earn anything) persuaded lots of people to confess and accuse others. Things were orse in Europe. Anthrologist Marvin Harris notes that the acceptance of Spectral Evidence and the torturing of suspects were guaranteed to produce large crops of victims, but not necessarily to root out actual practicing witches. It’s not our modern perceptions blinding us to the reaily of witchcraft – it’s a shadt system that manufactures victims. It doesn’t have to be witches you’re looking for – the analogies are so close that people called the HUAC and the McCarthy hearings “witch hunts”, and Arthur miller wrote his play “The Crucible” ostensibly about the Salem Witchcraft Trials, but in reality about political loyalty hunts. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/177 "2009-04-28T02:17:09Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Maybe this whole thread is hung up on the word “effective”. Has anyone ever truthfully confessed to something while being tortured? Almost certainly. I still wouldn’t call it effective. There are links in this thread that say other methods work better (but only if you’re not torturing, so it is an either-or choice). And the likelihood of false confessions makes it useless (if you have to corroborate information through other means, why bother with the torture). > > What torture is effective for is for those who wish to do evil to cover their own asses. Want to put someone to death? Just get them to confess to something. If you think you already know everything, you can use torture to confirm it. If you really want to learn, you can’t. > > Oh, yeah, it’s also a repugnant practice that shames those who practice it or allow it. Yes, that’s the thing : torture not only needs to be proven efficient at getting the truth out of a suspect, but so overwhelmingly efficient that its efficiency outweighs the numerous drawbacks of torturing people, such as vindicating its use against your own people, bolstering your enemy’s numbers and resolution, oh and leaving behind any pretense at humanity too. Let’s face it, if it were _that_ efficient, there wouldn’t be a debate in the first place : proponents of its use would easily demonstrate the appeal, and the big question would be a strictly moral one. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/178 "2009-04-28T04:00:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This is a false statement. > > I never “excluded” the testimony of such people. All I said was that they are not “experts” in something with which they have no experience, and the value of their testimony needs to be considered in that light. A distinction without a difference. You want a complete discussion, but you are only willing to accept “expert” testimony from one tiny group–that _just happens_ to favor your position–leaving you to dismiss any other testimony as either not relevant or not sufficiently knowledgeable–which is exactly how you have behaved throughout the rest of the thread. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Do you have a source for this claim? > > [Here’s](http://centres.exeter.ac.uk/ws/Abstracts/AbJacksosn.html) someone who studied the matter and disagrees with you. Note that your link, (which, as an abstract, does not even provide any information), refers to some witch trials in the seventeenth century when various people had bought into the idea of witchcraft. The authorities were hardly torturing people to admit witchcraft when the confessions looked more like bragging. The period when torture might actually have been employed was during the couple of preceding centuries [when social and cultural disruption first played a role in creating the idea that witches were real](http://www.tangledmoon.org/witchhunt.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/179 "2009-04-28T13:50:43Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Jesus Haploid Christ, what do you expect ? There is no such thing as a consensus where inexact sciences are concerned. No theory is accepted as true by everyone in the field. People have been claiming (at least by implication) that in this case the experts agree. You acknowledge that there are expert opinions on both sides, then we’ve made some progress already. > [@](#): > > You wanted a cite from unbiased people who did examine torture closely and didn’t opine that it was a good method, which has been provided. The majority of the SERE people do… and still you point to the two that didn’t to give you an excuse to cling to your belief ? How do you know what “the majority” hold? > [@tomndebb](#): > > A distinction without a difference. You want a complete discussion, but you are only willing to accept “expert” testimony from one tiny group–that _just happens_ to favor your position–leaving you to dismiss any other testimony as either not relevant or not sufficiently knowledgeable–which is exactly how you have behaved throughout the rest of the thread. The old “attack the motivations” gambit. OK, well for my part, I would suggest that you yourself want to base your conclusions on these “experts” because they _just happen_ to favor your position. I have this slight suspicion that if this were a topic in which you did not have a strong vested interest in one particular side being right, you would acknowledge that not having any actual experience in a subject tends to lessen the value of a person’s expertise. Just a hunch. > [@](#): > > Note that your link, (which, as an abstract, does not even provide any information), refers to some witch trials in the seventeenth century when various people had bought into the idea of witchcraft. The authorities were hardly torturing people to admit witchcraft when the confessions looked more like bragging. The period when torture might actually have been employed was during the couple of preceding centuries [when social and cultural disruption first played a role in creating the idea that witches were real](http://www.tangledmoon.org/witchhunt.htm). Your source does not support your claim, which now appears to have been made with no basis. Nor does it support your new and bizarre claim that torture was not being used in seventeenth century witch trials. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098/180 "2009-04-28T14:06:37Z")
What makes you so confident that the experts that you cite who talk about “torture guarantees people will talk” actually tortured correctly, per your definition that torture done correctly makes people give accurate information? A good number of those who you are citing worked for regimes that were notorious for plain and simple abuse of political enemies. Also, still waiting for an answer to my question about whether the John McCain confession of being an air pirate is an example of a successful interrogation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-is-most-likely-very-effective/494098.md?page=10)