# 'Torture-porn': can it possibly be something we want to allow? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 11, 2007, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342 "2007-07-11T08:23:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/61 "2007-07-12T04:16:45Z")
As many have said in this thread, I am almost entirely against censorship of any kind. However, I wish I lived in a society where such dreck failed to make any money; where no one \*wanted \*to watch it. I also wish I could fly. I hold the latter to be more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/62 "2007-07-12T04:39:02Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] Hey, I like hot sauce and ice cream, but I don’t want the one anywhere _near_ the other. [/QUOTE] I actually had mustard on frozen yogurt, once. It wasn’t that bad. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/63 "2007-07-12T04:47:39Z")
[QUOTE=miss elizabeth] I think these movies are just wildly and frighteningly misogynistic, and the people who make them, along with the people who get into them and enjoy them, have something off going on. I do not mind horror, per se, but these movies are about enjoying women being brutally tortured and treated as objects. [/QUOTE] Yes, and it’s kind of scary how blasé we are about that as a culture. It probably doesn’t help that the movie industry is still pretty much a man’s world. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/64 "2007-07-12T05:00:00Z")
The appeal of these films isn’t hard to understand, and it’s not nearly as dismal as a lot of you think. It’s just an endurance test. You get together with some buddies, rent the grossest, raunchiest horror film you can find, and then see who can watch the most without turning away. It’s one of those petty, bullshit adolescent dominance games that just about all boys played in one way or another. I can see it being off-putting when guys past a certain age do it, as it’s a sign of immaturity (says the guy with two bookshelves full of comic books) but it’s not particularly sinister. Doubtlessly, there are some guys who are into this stuff for genuinely sick reasons, but for the most part, it’s just a bit of delayed adolescence. ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/65 "2007-07-12T05:08:13Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] This is flatly untrue. The founding fathers wrote the First Amedment to protect newspapers against censorship for political reasons; [/QUOTE] Then why didn’t they say that? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/66 "2007-07-12T05:09:22Z")
So how do the _Final Destination_ movies fit into this? Young people are killed in graphically horrific fashion but the perpetrator is the sadistic whim of fate itself. Personally, I find them comical because the Rube Goldberg deaths are just _so_ ridiculous. I mean, geez, any _one_ of those would lead to a lawsuit bigger than the GNP of Spain. I couldn’t take _House of Wax_ seriously, either (how long can a wax-coated corpse last before decomposition and gas-bloating set in?). As for the _Saw_ films, I’m long-tired of the cliché of the superintelligent sociopath. When I see these movies on cable, I watch for the gore but flip away in boredom whenever somebody starts talking about the killer’s motivation. I’ve only been offended by one death - Dina Meyer is such a smokingly fuckable fox that having her ripped open by giant fishhooks is a criminal act of vandalism. I didn’t like Hannibal Lecter and I’m dismayed by the increasing laziness among the various _CSI_-ish shows, which I tend to enjoy when they don’t fall back on the lame “brilliant psycho is planting clues for us to find” bit. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/67 "2007-07-12T05:09:29Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] The appeal of these films isn’t hard to understand, and it’s not nearly as dismal as a lot of you think. It’s just an endurance test […] just a bit of delayed adolescence. [/QUOTE] So you’re saying they really _are_ hot sauce? ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/68 "2007-07-12T05:46:07Z")
The ultimate form of censorship is exercised by the person who chooses not to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/69 "2007-07-12T06:01:05Z")
[QUOTE=Scissorjack] The ultimate form of censorship is exercised by the person who chooses not to watch. [/QUOTE] This statement is so completely bass-ackwards that I suspect that you are joking. But on the chance that you are not, I’ll point out that choosing not to watch is the exact OPPOSITE of censorship, i.e., it is an act of choice. Censorship is denying choice, it is me saying to you, “You cannot watch/read/hear that” eliminating your choice in the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Sebhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@Sebhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sebhal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/70 "2007-07-12T11:40:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by spoke- > I can’t speak for the OP, but with the genre-standard slasher flick, there may be gore, but it tends to be brief, you identify with the victims on the run, and the “monster” tends to get killed or at least physically punished. (You might have to keep him alive for the sequel.) > > With the new generation of films, the torture and gore are so protracted and lovingly rendered it feels almost like the filmmaker is inviting us to identify with the torturer. This is precisely the impression I got. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Zebra > Why do they have to defend their choice of entertainment to you or to society at large? That is what you are asking them to do, since you are asking if this is someting we should allow. In the first instance, no one has to do anything; anyone who wants to ignore the question can. However, if people want to tell me, I’m interested to know. As for whether we should allow it or not, I conceded above that, IMHO, it shouldn’t be banned. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Zebra > Is there an response that will make you go “Oh, I see now, carry on”? Somehow I doubt it. I don’t think that there is anything anyone could say that would make me want to actually see one. Having said that I can see some logic in the ‘life-affirming’ argument: one goes through this grisly hell during the film and emerges into the fresh air to drive home safely. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Zebra > This new wave of ‘torture’ films, no I won’t use your term Just to clarify, not my term (see the link in the OP), the writer of which is actually quoting someone else again. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Darkhold > A society of evolved monkeys perhaps? We’re hardwired to enjoy sex and violence. It’s quite an accomplishment that we can vicariously view violence in a setting where nobody gets hurt. I know people that think hunting is a great sport. I’ve heard laughing stories about accidently wounding an animal and having to chase it through bloody snow as it slowly died. About animals suddenly ‘coming alive’ and scaring the hunter that was just about to butcher it. Personally I find such stories horrible and detest hunting but it’s pretty obvious why people enjoy it. We’re just built that way. Do you really think we’re hard-wired to enjoy violence? I wouldn’t dispute the sex (urge to procreate and all that), but I don’t think I’m hard-wired to enjoy violence; and from the sound of it you aren’t either. Some people clearly do, but one could find someone, I suspect, to enjoy anything you can think of. That doesn’t mean it’s hard-wired, which surely would effect us all? > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Darkhold > History is littered with wars of conquest and unspeakable violence for even less reason then the Iraq war yet that’s where we get so much poetry, self righteousness and epic tales from. I don’t think it’s ridiculous to compare past wars to recent ones and state that we have less tolerance for war now then we did. I’m not saying there wasn’t any protests and dissenters in the past but our whole attitude towards war has changed on a fundamental level it seems to me. Perhaps however this isn’t important for this debate. I’ll drop it for being pointless. I don’t think there are problems with comparing wars as such, my point was that a death in a war defending one’s country might be met with less public outcry (though every bit as much personal grief) than a death in Iraq under current circumstances, therefore using the outcry about deaths in Iraq may not be a good barometer of the attitude of the public in general to violence. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/71 "2007-07-12T11:44:32Z")
[QUOTE=Sebhal] Do you really think we’re hard-wired to enjoy violence? I wouldn’t dispute the sex (urge to procreate and all that), but I don’t think I’m hard-wired to enjoy violence; and from the sound of it you aren’t either. Some people clearly do, but one could find someone, I suspect, to enjoy anything you can think of. That doesn’t mean it’s hard-wired, which surely would effect us all? [/QUOTE] I think the urge/taste for violence is reinforced by society - but mostly on a very deep, primal level that people don’t like to think about. ---
**Author:** ![Sebhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@Sebhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sebhal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/72 "2007-07-12T12:15:28Z")
I certainly think we all _respond_ to violence, the ‘fight-or-flight’ response, increased heart-rate, clammy skin etc, and my first though was that that kind of response is a world away from actually _enjoying_ it. Having said that, I do enjoy a good sword-fight (there were two in the second _Pirates of the Caribbean_ film that I thoroughly enjoyed; one three-way fight, and another with three people swapping two swords between them. Gore, there, though was minimal to non-existent, as I recall. I can’t think of a fist-fight that I’ve enjoyed in the same way. Maybe I’m just immeasurably more squeamish than I think I am! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/73 "2007-07-12T13:24:14Z")
[QUOTE=Zebra] Porn is a lot older than the 1950s. [/QUOTE] Sure, pull the other one! Next you’ll be telling me that sarcasm wasn’t invented by Gen X, but rather is so old that the word derives from an ancient Greek expression meaning “to bite the lips in rage.” Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Licentious\_Ectomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@Licentious\_Ectomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Licentious_Ectomorph)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/74 "2007-07-12T14:10:26Z")
First, a nitpick with regard to the OP. I don’t know if it makes a difference (I’m sure you’ll say it doesn’t, but you can’t deny that one of the concerns you stated was about the violence against women, implying – however subtly – that it would be more “okay” if it were men): the protagonists/victims in the first _Hostel_ film were male. The director (or producer or whoever makes these decisions; I could probably find the quote if I needed to) “upped the ante” for the second one by featuring women for the stated reason that it would be _more_ horrifying – we’re less psychologically able to cope with women being tortured. The _Saw_ series included at least as many men as women, and again the first one focused on two men. From the trailers I’ve seen for _Captivity_, there are both a male and female prisoner. The point of all of these movies is that they’re _horror._ We’re supposed to be shocked and revolted by it, and to identify with the victims. While I admit that Jason Voorhees, Michael Myers, and especially Freddy Krueger became anti-heroes and boderline sympathetic characters as the movies contiued to be cranked out and become parodies of themselves, that’s not the case with _Hostel_, in which the perpetrators were not developed at all, and were effectively anonymous – making them more terrifying from the point of view of the victims. Personally, my satisfaction with these films, be they “torture” or run-of-the-mill “slasher” flicks, comes when one of the would-be victims uses ingenuity and courage to fight back/escape and the villains get their comeuppance. Case in point: in the first _Hostel_, the surviving male victim not only escapes, but goes back to rescue someone else he doesn’t even know. I thought that was a pretty positive message. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/75 "2007-07-12T14:15:41Z")
OK OK, I didn’t catch your sarcasm. **Sebhal** It is your term. You may not have coined it, but you did title your thread with it. By using that term, in the thread title, you cast the films into catagorey that is, to most people, unredeeable. Yes, you backed off censorship. So should we close this thread? In America, Porn, is a four letter word. (ha ha) You call something porn and it’s like accusing someone of being a child molester. They are quilty. Forget a trial. Forget any reasonable thought. It’s porn. It’s bad. We’re done. I challenge your theory that most people are influenced by what they see. I think, most people, realize that a movie is just a movie. How many people watch The Sopranos? How many of them have orginized their family into a crime syndicate? If you truely believe that the entertainment that people watch, play, listen to, changes their behavior, then I see no other course for you than to be a censor. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/76 "2007-07-12T14:31:10Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] Hey, I like hot sauce and ice cream, but I don’t want the one anywhere _near_ the other. [/QUOTE] You really don’t know what you’re missing. McIlhenny tobasco and vanilla ice cream is the food of the gods. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/77 "2007-07-12T15:47:32Z")
I’d just like to point out something that doesn’t seem to have been discussed, regarding older horror flicks versus the newer ones: the “old guard” of movies, such as **Halloween** , **Friday the 13th** , **A Nightmare on Elm Street** and such, do indeed feature stalker-killers. It’s the same with the first wave of more modern horror, such as **Scream** and **I Know What You Did Last Summer**. But there’s another important difference that no one has yet pointed out: all of the movies I’ve listed, the progenitors of modern horror and the more modern ones alike, feature murders, and blood, and even gore, and they tend to prolong the fear of the protagonists. The new wave of horror, such as **Hostel** and **Saw** , however, seem to be more about _pain_ rather than death or the fear of death. It’s a little disingenuous to say that “there’s always been gore in movies” without noting this difference. Now, there were films about pain way back when. **Wizard of Gore** , already mentioned, is only different from **Hostel** in the quality of its special effects. And those who claim that the violence in modern horror is misogynistic would probably have a seizure if they saw **Bloodsucking Freaks** , released in 1976 (it also goes by the titles **The House of the Screaming Virgins** and **The Incredible Torture Show** ). The only difference between the old and the new is the degree of major studio acceptance; what used to be seen only in the crappy theater downtown now gets Paramount’s name before the credits and three screens at your local Cinemark. Still, the fact remains that there is no new thing under the sun, and such movies are not purely a recent phenomenon. One thing that may be driving the new surge in “torture porn” is the rise of Japanese horror. Now, there’s loads of Japanese horror ( **Ringu** , **Kwaidan** ) that rely on creepiness and atmosphere to instill dread. But it can’t be denied, if you’ve seen the kinds of titled that come out of Japan, that there’s a certain cultural fascination with pain that we Westerners don’t really fathom. Thus, we get stuff like the **Guinea Pig** series. Takashi Miike, famed director of **Audition** , **Ichi the Killer** , and **Imprint** (the only episode of “Masters of Horror” that Showtime has refused to show), movies which take torture to levels unseen in Western cinema, even made a cameo appearance in the first **Hostel**. That had to be a big thrill for Eli Roth. Anyway, my long-winded point is that these things aren’t new, and as a lover of horror movies I don’t think censorship, self-imposed or otherwise, is warranted. Not even for the worst of the worst, **August Underground’s Mordum** , which if you think **Hostel** was bad, would cause your stomach to take a job with Cirque du Soleil for all the flips it’ll do. **Mordum** is an endurance test for even the staunchest horror fan, and I say that as someone who owns the “snuff editions” of all three **August Underground** movies. In conclusion, I think we watch horror movies for the same reasons we ride roller coasters: we like the illusion of danger from a position of safety. It’s thrilling, it gives us a rush. “Torture porn” is just the latest, fastest roller coaster. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/78 "2007-07-12T16:00:10Z")
The only “torture-porn” movie I’ve seen is _Audition_. Having seen it I have no desire to see another. I have no problem with these movies, and I understand the motives of most of the people who want to see them, though I think there is a minority of fans who watch them for masturbation fodder. My one request is that they tone down the ads. I really don’t need to see some girl having her toe cut off while I’m watching a rerun of The Simpsons and eating my dinner. Also, for some reason I really want to beat the shit out of Eli Roth. I think I could, too. ---
**Author:** ![Sebhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@Sebhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sebhal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/79 "2007-07-12T16:17:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Zebra: > It is your term. You may not have coined it, but you did title your thread with it. No, it’s not my term. I quoted it in the title because I was surprised to find it used in the context of a mainstream film. I quoted Owen’s ‘Dulce et Decorum Est’ earlier; that certainly doesn’t make it mine. I could have titled the thread ‘So, what do we all think of Hostel II then?’ but while I’m interested to know what people think of it and why someone would go to watch it that wasn’t all I’m interested in. The title sets, I think, the tone of the debate, and was chosen for a reason. > [@](#): > > Forget any reasonable thought. It’s porn. It’s bad. We’re done. If you’re going to judge the title in terms of your cultural orientation, you have to concede that I may have intended something different (something a bit more reasoned) in using it from mine. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342/80 "2007-07-12T16:21:30Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > You call something porn and it’s like accusing someone of being a child molester. They are quilty. Best literary typo of the week! 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torture-porn-can-it-possibly-be-something-we-want-to-allow/411342.md?page=5)