# torturers in the animal kingdom? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 10, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007 "2004-11-10T13:20:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/1 "2004-11-10T13:20:16Z")
are there any? other than those who kill for food, kill for survival, kill for territory, kill for slaves, kill for sex etc. ; are there any living beings other than humans who _torture_ others for fun? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/2 "2004-11-10T13:34:50Z")
“Torture” is a very loaded word which involves understanding the motivations of animals. Frankly, that’s just beyond our ability right now - we don’t have a common language to communicate and ask an animal why it killed. There are animals that kill when they aren’t hungry, don’t save the kill for later eating, aren’t protecting their territory, attracting a mate, etc. My house cat is one. She appears to enjoy (my interpretation of her behavior, not an actual fact) killing mice, bugs and birds. [Dolphins](http://luna.pos.to/whale/gen_art_killer.html) have been known to kill other dolphins for reasons we don’t understand. [Chimpanzees](http://ca.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761562479/Jane_Goodall.html) seem to kill “for fun”, as well as for reproductive and territorial reasons. All three of these animals often “play with” or “prolong the inevetable deaths” of their victims, so maybe you can consider that “torture.” YMMV. In short, if you’re looking to demonize humans as “the only animals that kill or torture for fun,” don’t go there. There’s too much evidence that says otherwise. (Chimps and dolphins have been known to rape, too.) ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/3 "2004-11-10T13:44:59Z")
I think we discussed whether animals kill for fun in another thread. I argued that there were weasels who didn’t kill out of necessity (like the one that wiped out my parents’ chicken coop), but someone else counter-argued that it was in their nature to kill whatever they could and it was not necessarily out of “fun”. So it was actually an argument over motivations, and I agree with the first response–we simply can’t assign motives to animals. Although, it’s very hard to argue that household cats don’t enjoy torturing mice for fun. Cats in the wild don’t “play” with their prey, so presumably playing with mice serves no purpose except for “fun” when basic needs have been satiated. ---
**Author:** ![Paisley\_Park](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Paisley\_Park](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paisley_Park)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/4 "2004-11-10T14:46:37Z")
Orcas play “volleyball” with their prey, sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/5 "2004-11-10T15:32:35Z")
> [@Paisley Park](#): > > Orcas play “volleyball” with their prey, sometimes. I have to say, all compassion for living creatures aside… That’s got to be a hell of a show! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/6 "2004-11-10T15:57:58Z")
I’ve seen dogs kill domesticated animals for kicks, not for food. Cats often play with their prey. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/7 "2004-11-10T16:03:00Z")
> [@dre2xl](#): > > I argued that there were weasels who didn’t kill out of necessity…, but someone else counter-argued that it was in their nature to kill whatever they could and it was not necessarily out of “fun”. Treading into GD territory, but I’d counter-argue that “in their nature” is the essence of ‘fun’. After all, why is sex ‘fun’? It feels good, it feels good because you have to _want_ to do it for reproduction, etc… ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/8 "2004-11-10T16:26:50Z")
While the weasel probably does get an euphoria rush out of it… the person’s argument was quite reasonable… my parents had all these chickens in one place, with no escape route. It could be in the weasel’s instincts to kill whatever they can, regardless of what they actually “need”. Euphoria doesn’t enter into it. For example, I have 2 long haired cats. When I brush them, I pull the hair out of the bristles to clean the brush. If I show the ball of cat fur to them, they try to eat it (providing it’s their own fur–they don’t eat it if it’s from the other cat’s fur). I’m fairly sure it’s no fun for them to eat a whole ball of fur, but it’s in their instinct to try and cover their own scent so that prey do not detect them. ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/9 "2004-11-10T16:31:45Z")
Of course, this doesn’t change my opinion that weasels are the scum of the mammal kingdom. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Selkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Selkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Selkie)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/10 "2004-11-10T16:35:45Z")
Regarding cats playing with their prey: my understanding is that the goal is for the mouse’s muscles to be softened by the build-up of lactic acid so that the resulting meal is easier for the cat to digest. If that’s true, then the cat’s behavior is the result of a critical survival instinct, not an act of “cruelty.” I agree with the posters who state that we can’t ascribe motive to the behaviors of animals. They may very well have motivations above and beyond survival, but it’s almost impossible for us to determine what they may be. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/11 "2004-11-10T16:38:55Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I have to say, all compassion for living creatures aside… > > That’s got to be a hell of a show! 😛 It’s on “The Blue Planet- seas of life” Part 4 which is available on DVD in USA and I’m sure other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/12 "2004-11-10T17:19:10Z")
When I was in high school, my folks kept suburban chickens. One time a possum got into the coop and ate the eyes off of as many as it could catch. After all this time I can’t remember if it ate one or not. Of course, that might be in line with the nature documentaries showing sea lions catching a fish, chewing off its fins so that it can’t swim, then catching more fish. The immobilized fish and the blind chickens might be being stored for later. ---
**Author:** ![vl\_mungo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@vl\_mungo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vl_mungo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/13 "2004-11-10T19:43:15Z")
> [@dre2xl](#): > > Of course, this doesn’t change my opinion that weasels are the scum of the mammal kingdom. 😃 [HOMER]Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It’s what seperates us from the animals… except the weasels.[/HOMER] ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/14 "2004-11-12T13:10:26Z")
interesting. how about cross-species goodwill? any animal samaritans out there? i can only think of the stories of dolphins saving people from drowning, surely there is no selfishness involved in that behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/15 "2004-11-12T16:19:49Z")
I came across my cat playing with a mouse once. It basically played Hacky Sack with it for 10 minutes until it died, probably from a heart attack. The mouse probably felt it was toture. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/16 "2004-11-12T17:35:03Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > interesting. how about cross-species goodwill? any animal samaritans out there? i can only think of the stories of dolphins saving people from drowning, surely there is no selfishness involved in that behaviour. Well, [many varieties of birds raise the cuckoo’s young](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/03/0311_030312_cuckoo.html). Of course, they might just be dumb - the cuckoo kicks out the bird’s real eggs and lays its own in their place. There are certainly anecdotes of cross-species goodwill, cats raising puppies, sheep raising ducks, that sort of thing. [Koko the gorilla and her kitten All Ball](http://www.koko.org/friends/kokomart_books.koko.html) (actually, there’s been more than one kitten, although the trainers are not sure if Koko knows that) are probably the most famous. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/17 "2004-11-13T20:50:49Z")
the cuckoo’s duping the parents, and i \*assume \* that the X fosters Y anecdotes happens to domesticated animals with a need to nurse (own young lost or whatever). is Koko one of a kind? i would like to amend my question to, “are there any examples of unselfish cross-species goodwill in the wild?” ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/18 "2004-11-13T22:47:22Z")
Unselfish is a tough term to define even in humans, and impossible in animals. Let’s be honest, we say that a fireman is unselfish, but at the end of the day they expect to be paid a reasonable wage for their work so they aren’t entirely unselfish. The same standard of unselfish could be readily applied to species such as honeyguides that perform an important serve for other species but expect a modest payment as reward. Then of course we have rare cases of natural cross-species maternal instincts gone awry like this: > [@](#): > > A female lion found a baby oryx, whose mother had abandoned it to search for food, and took the infant under her care. [http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi\_m0BFU/is\_15\_87/ai\_84799253](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BFU/is_15_87/ai_84799253) ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturers-in-the-animal-kingdom/274007/19 "2004-11-13T22:57:52Z")
:eek: from the link: > [@](#): > > The lioness, which park officials named Larsen, allowed the baby oryx’s mother to return regularly to breastfeed the calf but then shooed the mom away after each feeding. interesting. especially since oryxes are a type of antelopes!