# Torturing Suspected Terrorists
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 22, 2001, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846 "2001-10-22T12:59:59Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/61 "2001-10-24T15:03:36Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by spoke- \*
> \*\ ***Sua** , I admire your principled stand on this matter. On the other hand, I have to wonder if you will waver when (not if) we enter the age of nuclear terrorism.
>
> Will you sacrifice entire American cities to those principles?
Dammit, no fair! š Oh yeah, Iād sacrifice my principles in a heart-beat if that was the downside. The Constitution isnāt a suicide pact.
Sua
---
### Author:  [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/62 "2001-10-24T16:16:22Z")
**SuaSponte**
I canāt argue with your position - seems to boil down to a matter of personal preference (i.e. do you prefer to suffer from Consequence A or Consequence B), and you seem to acknowledge (in your recent response to spoke-) that your position would depend on how severe the actual danger was.
I would point out though, that your analogies are not accurate. In the cases you cite, you would have to place many cameras and many police in offices in order to prevent relatively few crimes. Surely if one camera would prevent one crime we would place it. The reason we donāt have cameras in homes is because though a camera is preferable to a crime, the vast majority of the cameras will not be preventing everything, but will still be invading privacy. So the judgement of society is that it is worth it accept the few crimes rather than the many cameras.
By contrast, in this case it is likely that the ratio of lives saved to torture committed is significantly higher (or could be, if done properly). I think **The Ryan** may have been making this point, and if so, your response was inadequate. There is no policy that would allow for putting a camera in only TheRyanās home, and in any event the likelihood of a crime being committed in his home is small (AFAIK :D). If there was good reason to suspect that a crime would be committed in his home the police might just be able to get a warrant for the camera.
But you might conceivably dispute this, and say that torture too is ineffective and will prevent relatively few crimes. This is the position of others in this thread.
And again, this only deals with the analogy, and whether it is inconsistent oppose cameras in every home while supporting torture. Buit independantly of the analogy, if people think the tradeoff is simply not worth making, thatās their prerogative.
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### Author:  [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2001, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/63 "2001-10-24T17:43:45Z")
Zenster:
Even in your pretty rarefied scenario, Iām not sure I see how torture is the best solution.
If you have little time to get the information and save the millions, how can you hope to break them in such a short period?
Get somebody in an isolated and controlled environment, for even a short period of time, and thereās all kinds of ways to trick and manipulate them psychologically.
Why go after the body when your targetās the mind?
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/64 "2001-10-25T03:43:50Z")
Shoulda more clearly seperated my points-
1-Mannix and Panati find that torture can be used to extract confessions-whether or not the subject is guilty or even has enough knowledge of the crime to make an accurate confession.
2-When it comes to gaining information (who are the other members of your cell? What is your next target? etc), torture is nearly useless.
Spoke-You say that torture is effective? Cite.
Second, torture of a prisoner is a deliberate act. Civilian deaths due to bombings are accidental. The armed forces spend a great deal of time and money to hit the right targets. I do not consider the deaths of Afghani civilians ānecessaryā. Neither does the military. If they did, they would be carpet bombing the cities.
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### Author:  [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/65 "2001-10-25T04:07:15Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Scylla \*
> \*\*Zenster:
>
> Even in your pretty rarefied scenario, Iām not sure I see how torture is the best solution.
>
> If you have little time to get the information and save the millions, how can you hope to break them in such a short period?
>
> Get somebody in an isolated and controlled environment, for even a short period of time, and thereās all kinds of ways to trick and manipulate them psychologically.
>
> Why go after the body when your targetās the mind? \*\*
I have absolutely no problem with your statement. Yes, use every means available in the _exact_ scenario provided. I hope that people notice that my hypothetical situation does not deal with the extraction of evidence from suspects. It deals with obtaining information from _known_ participants.
To be utterly brutal I think that the prosect of having body parts violently amputated moving from small to large could quickly induce canary-like coluratura from a conspirator. If not they would deserve it anyway for nuclear terror.
---
### Author:  [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/66 "2001-10-25T13:22:28Z")
That is pretty brutal. If I was in the terroristās shoes, that will fill me with hate, and convince me further of the righteousness of my cause. Worse than that, it make me determined to punish those who had done what they did to me, and Iād be even more resolved to make sure I gave away nothing. Even further, such trauma and the entailing shock would make me unreachable to my tormentors as Iād have given up hope and just be waiting for death.
Your argument seems bloodthirsty and brutal just for the sake of it, which I have a problem with. We sink that far and weāre no better than the terrorists.
It also seems a bad choice as the likelihood of getting results is poor compared to other possibilities.
---
### Author:  [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/67 "2001-10-25T13:31:04Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DocCathode \*
> Shoulda more clearly seperated my points-
> 1-Mannix and Panati find that torture can be used to extract confessions-whether or not the subject is guilty or even has enough knowledge of the crime to make an accurate confession.
> 2-When it comes to gaining information (who are the other members of your cell? What is your next target? etc), torture is nearly useless.
Iām still unclear - is your second point also from Mannix and Panati?
Also, regarding your previous post that truth serum is not more effective than getting people drunk - is law enforcement currently allowed to get people drunk? This too sounds like a good idea.
---
### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/68 "2001-10-25T14:54:44Z")
IzzyR-Yes, the second point is also from those 2 authors.
IIRC, Israeli police can legally deprive a suspect of sleep. Getting an Islamic suspect drunk would be a violation of the laws of Islam. This would anger the mainstream Islamic community.
The purpose of truth serum or sleep deprivation is to disorient the subject. Hopefully, they will become confused enough that their defense mechanisms drop and they answer your questions. However, if the main thought in the suspectās mind is āI hate you people. I want you dead. Iām not telling you jack!ā, thatās still all youāll get.
---
### Author:  [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/69 "2001-10-25T17:29:17Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by DocCathode \*
> **Spoke-You say that torture is effective? Cite.**
Let me begin by saying again that **I do not advocate torture**. However, I think you are mistaken in your conclusion that torture is not effective. Oppose torture on moral grounds, if you wish, but not on the ground that it doesnāt work.
The Wall Street Journal article cited above provides pretty good anecdotal evidence as to the effectiveness of physical torture combined with psychological ploys.
Also try [this link](http://www.ninehundred.net/control/mc-ch4.html), written in 1956 by Joost A. M. Meerloo, M.D., Instructor in Psychiatry, Columbia University, who was himself a victim of Nazi torture while a member of the Dutch resistance.
In the link, he describes how torture breaks all but the very strongest victims. The torture he describes is not just physical, but psychological.
Sample blurbs:
> [@](#):
>
> A very husky former hero of the Dutch resistance, known as King Kong because of his size and strength, became the treacherous instrument of the Nazis soon after his brother had been taken with him and the Nazis threatened to kill the youth.King Kongās final surrender to the enemy and his becoming their treacherous tool was psychiatrically recognizable as a defense mechanism against his deep guilt, arising from hidden feelings of aggression against his brother (Boeree).
>
> Another example of breakdown is seen in the story of one young resistance fighter who, after the Nazis had threatened to torture his father, who was imprisoned with him, finally broke into childish tears and promised to tell them everything they wanted to know. After that he was taken back to his cell in order to be softened up after the following day. This was the routine of his interrogator. The inquisitors understood only too well the effectiveness of patient pursuit at repeated moments while intruding into a manās guilt feelings. Although both prisoners were liberated that night as a consequence of the Allied sweep through Belgium and the southwest part of Holland, the boy remained in his depression for a long time, tortured by his knowledge that he had nearly betrayed his best friends in the underground in order to save his father ā in spite of knowing, at the same time, that the promises of the enemy would not have protected his father.
> [@](#):
>
> When a man has to choose either hunger, death marches, and torture or a temporary yelding to the illusions of the enemy, his self-preservation mechanisms act in many ways like reflexes. They help him to find a thousand justifications and exculpations for giving in to the psychological pressure.
In addition, I have heard John McCain, also a victim of torture, offer his opinion on more than one occasion that _everyone_ ābreaksā under torture. McCainās statements were part of television interviews, so I do not have a link.
As between your experts and mine, I think maybe we should listen to the ones with first-hand experience.
---
### Author:  [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2001, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/70 "2001-10-25T20:49:17Z")
It appears that the folks in the thread have mistaken my comments as an endoresement of torture. I advised watching the film as caution before making easy decisions one way or the other. The French effectively used torture in breaking up a system of cells structured rather as al-Qaeda. And with good reason, the Algerian
experience had immense influence in the region.
Immense. One can learn quite a lot about the
situation from studying Algeria.
However, that effective use of torture came at a
terrible price for a democratic society. Was it worth
it? Would it be worth it for us? Very difficult to
answer. I would not exclude it, but neither would I
embrace it. Those arguing for embracing torture
should come to terms with what that means. Watch the
movie, read about the terror that was Algeriaā¦
---
### Author:  [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2001, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/71 "2001-10-26T05:41:34Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Scylla \*
> \*\*That is pretty brutal. If I was in the terroristās shoes, that will fill me with hate, and convince me further of the righteousness of my cause. Worse than that, it make me determined to punish those who had done what they did to me, and Iād be even more resolved to make sure I gave away nothing. Even further, such trauma and the entailing shock would make me unreachable to my tormentors as Iād have given up hope and just be waiting for death.
>
> Your argument seems bloodthirsty and brutal just for the sake of it, which I have a problem with. We sink that far and weāre no better than the terrorists.
>
> It also seems a bad choice as the likelihood of getting results is poor compared to other possibilities. \*\*
Which is why I so readily agree with you. I wish not for a reality where such measures are the norm. I only believe that we are faced with a situation where we must confront the possibility that such facts may indeed be the (very undesirable) case.
**Scylla** , please contribute your wisdom to the āCredible Deterrentā thread.
---
### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2001, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/72 "2001-10-26T14:49:03Z")
He has also told of events where torture failed. Another POW had managed to sew an American flag from pieces of clothing. Every morning, the soldiers would salute the flag. The guards discovered the flage and destroryed it. The soldier who had made the flag was taken from the cell. When he was returned, he was bruised, bleeding and had obviously been beaten. As soon as the guards left, the man began to make another flag.
---
### Author:  [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2001, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/73 "2001-10-26T19:34:49Z")
Thatās our American spirit.
We will always prevail. At any cost.
We are at war, and we need to do what it takes to survive.
How quickly some forget about 5000 Americans buried under the rubble at the World Trade Center.
We did not ask for this. We live and let live.
Until we are pushed too far.
They are not through with us.
When we were at war with Germany in World War II, our enemies were just as dead whether they were tortured to death or were blown to bits by a bombing raid.
Torture is a combination of psychological and physical challenges inflicted upon a suspect.
As already cited, it is quite effective.
I am surprised no one has yet mentioned that we use it already anyway. Ever heard of the CIA?
My familyās lives and of course I feel all Americanās
lives are worth any measure to maintain a secure
homeland.
---
### Author:  [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2001, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/74 "2001-10-26T20:44:00Z")
If we used torture we would become what they want us to be. 'Nuff said.
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### Author:  [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2001, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/75 "2001-10-26T21:14:14Z")
All they want us to be is dead.
Actually they couldnāt care less about our lifestyle.
What they really want is a free āPalestineā.
Not defending them by any means.
We should be able to choose who our friends are
without fear of terrorism.
---
### Author:  [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2001, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/76 "2001-10-26T21:22:18Z")
They appear to be counting on the fact that we are unwilling to defend our way of life by any means necessary. Hence they know we will not torture suspects nor attack them with nuclear weapons.
The question then becomes whether we are going to humor them in order to keep our consciences clear.
---
### Author:  [@Dryga\_Yes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dryga_Yes)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2001, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/77 "2001-10-26T21:40:02Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by jimpatro \*
> \*\*Thatās our American spirit.
> We will always prevail. At any cost.
> We are at war, and we need to do what it takes to survive.
> How quickly some forget about 5000 Americans buried under the rubble at the World Trade Center.
> We did not ask for this. We live and let live.
> Until we are pushed too far.
> They are not through with us.
> When we were at war with Germany in World War II, our enemies were just as dead whether they were tortured to death or were blown to bits by a bombing raid.
> Torture is a combination of psychological and physical challenges inflicted upon a suspect.
> As already cited, it is quite effective.
> I am surprised no one has yet mentioned that we use it already anyway. Ever heard of the CIA?
> My familyās lives and of course I feel all Americanās
> lives are worth any measure to maintain a secure
> homeland. \*\*
Was there a point to this?
---
### Author:  [@medstar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/medstar)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2001, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/78 "2001-10-26T21:52:32Z")
How about turning suspected terrorists over to the Prince Georgeās County Police Department and allowing the detectives to question them? Go back about 2-3 months and read the metro section of the Washington Post newspaper. One man was convicted of killing his wife (canāt remember his name) solely on the basis of his confession. This confession was obtained by 36+ hours of continuous interrogation, sleep deprivation, and threats by the detectives in the case. The man was exonerated when detectives from another jurisdiction caught the real perpetrator. He is now suing the Prince Georgeās County police department, in hopes of forcing them to change their methods. The situation is so bad that the chief prosecutor refuses to put one particular detective on the witness stand because he lies constantly, and a commission is being readied to examine the situation. Again, go back and read the metro section of the Washington Post newspaper to capture the details. Iāll bet the information is extracted in record time.
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### Author:  [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2001, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/79 "2001-10-26T22:04:44Z")
Itās called a rant newbie.
Okay, so Iāve only posted 19 times, 20 now.
I think your question was rhetorical but just in case.
I am all for torture as a means to gather intelligence.
Not so somebody can yell out that the butler did it.
But to build a data base of information that will help us defend against other possible atrocities.
I think terrorists deserve it too.
---
### Author:  [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)
#### Post date: [October 28, 2001, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/torturing-suspected-terrorists/88846/80 "2001-10-28T19:22:18Z")
Very interesting article in todayās NY Times: [All Suicide Bombers Are Not Alike](http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/28/magazine/28TERRORIST.html?pagewanted=all)
Ends off with this:
> [@](#):
>
> Back in Tel Aviv, a security official I met ended our discussion by saying that the West might have to review the āāmethodsāā it used to fight terrorism. If it was serious about this war, he said, it might have to use āāother methods.āā Years ago, in other places, Iād engaged in the same line of discussion with other security men, so I thought I could guess what he meant ā how long a suspect can be held without being charged, when he gets to be told his rights, what happens in the interrogation room in the meantime. He asked me what the American authorities would do if they had reason to believe that a bomb was being smuggled into one of their cities and that someone they already held might be able to identify the bomber and his target.
>
> Using the Socratic method, the Israeli was tacitly suggesting that our constitutional protections might now be an obstacle. (āāAfter they confess,āā he said, āāwe tell them their rights.āā) He was a serious man with large responsibilities who showed every sign of wishing there were a way out.
>
> I had taken in a lot in Gaza and Cairo, but it was in Hamburg where I really got a jolt, a feeling in my own bones the temptations our protectors could face if this āāwarāā runs on inconclusively ā and how much then could really be put at risk.
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