# Total FUCKER fails to tell fiancee he's HIV+, marries her, and infects her

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [June 10, 2003, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820 "2003-06-10T10:12:17Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 18\
**Page:** 4

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/61 "2003-06-12T09:35:07Z")

</div>

And I can’t re-find the article, but I also read that her child is HIV free, thank god, and she is now with a second partner or husband, and they also have an HIV free child.

In the lengthier version, IIRC from the Sydney Morning Herald, the judge’s ruling contains an estimation that she is not likely to live to see her children reach a certain age, and the ruling includes compensation for her first child (though not the second, whose father is HIV free), and most horrifyingly they actually estimate her death year.

Imagine going through all that, with doctors (on your side) having to get up in court and estimate the date you won’t live beyond.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/62 "2003-06-12T09:36:38Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by istara \*  
> \*\*The only confidentiality that is utterly absolute is that of the catholic confessional. Whatever is said to a priest - even if it’s highly likely a suspected mass murderer has confessed to them - cannot be forced from that priest. I am not sure what the priest’s situation is on voluntarily informing the authorities, if someone seriously dangerous and set to re-offend has made confession to him. \*\*

I think that extends to all clergy. The Rev. Rosey Grier visited OJ in prison, and they had a conversation, during which OJ raised his voice, loud enough to be heard outside the room. But no one will ever know what was said then, either.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/63 "2003-06-12T21:10:02Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by FranticMad \*  
> \*\*To what extend is AIDS a death sentence these days for someone who can afford modern medical treatments? Does anyone have facts and citations on this?
> 
> I admit that in the distant past I’ve had sex with someone without grilling them about their medical history. I assumed that they would tell me beforehand if there was any risk for me. There, but for the grace of God, go I. \*\*

Depends on the serotype.

HIV 1 is long term slow progressor typically with low/no syncissia (if I could spell this word right I would).

Basically it is the type of HIV that stays at latent levels for 5-15 or whatever years without treatment.

HIV 2 is the nasty shit. 1-3 years I believe is all it takes to wipe out the immunesystem.

As for drug treatment… It’s highly variable. It depends on the mutations present in the HIV strain that causes the initial infection. Someone who was infected by someone with late stage HIV 2 they probably will end up getting a multi DR HIV infection and have a rather short life expectancy.

Given the population distribution, and the fact that the guy wasn’t seriously ill yet she probably was exposed to HIV 1, with a regimine of drugs she’s probably looking at 10-15 years before AIDS begins to show up.

I would like to point out that HIV is NOT a lethal pathogen. By itself it CANNOT kill a person. AIDS is however a deadly condition.

As a personal note:

The only upside of my social life is that I haven’t had to sit down with a cute female and explain the risks associated with sleeping with someone in my profession.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![CRorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CRorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRorex)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/64 "2003-06-12T21:11:42Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by istara \*  
> \*\*Here’s a little more info - [http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s876432.htm](http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s876432.htm)
> 
> And here - [http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,12070,974918,00.html](http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,12070,974918,00.html)
> 
> It turns out that the women insisted on the tests, because her fiance was from Ghana, which has high rates of HIV. \*\*

You know enough that he’s from a high risk population yet you don’t demand to physically SEE the tests.

_ugh_ I’m paranoid enough I’d demand to see the test.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/65 "2003-06-12T21:47:06Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by CRorex \*  
> **You know enough that he’s from a high risk population yet you don’t demand to physically SEE the tests.**

She **DID** demand to see the test and he showed her fake results.

She really, really has no blame, whatsoever in this situation.

All the paranoia in the world wont help you if you’re engaged to a liar.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/66 "2003-06-12T22:17:32Z")

</div>

**CRorex** - how do you end up getting HIV1 or HIV2? Are they different mutations or something? And how prevalent is the nastier one by comparison?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\
**Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/67 "2003-06-13T00:31:34Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by istara \*  
> **In the lengthier version, IIRC from the Sydney Morning Herald, the judge’s ruling contains an estimation that she is not likely to live to see her children reach a certain age, and the ruling includes compensation for her first child (though not the second, whose father is HIV free), and most horrifyingly they actually estimate her death year.**

The quantum of the award was based on the fact that she was **unlikely** to live more than 15 years.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\
**Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/68 "2003-06-13T00:55:45Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by FranticMad \*  
> To what extend is AIDS a death sentence these days for someone who can afford modern medical treatments? Does anyone have facts and citations on this?

\>sigh\< ☹

THERE IS **NO** , I REPEAT **NO** CURE FOR HIV/AIDS AT THIS TIME

Got that? If you have HIV and it progresses to where you lose your immune system cells _you will die_. All the drugs in the world will only delay the inevitable. Got that? THERE IS NO CURE.

That said, there are drugs that will _delay_ the progression considerably, so people may live 10 or 15 or more years with no _AIDS_ symptoms. This increases their chances of dying of something _other_ than AIDS, but if they have no accidents or other untoward events _they will die of AIDS related causes_. In other words THERE IS NO CURE.

Now, a _very very very few_ people in this world do NOT get HIV infections no matter how many times they are exposed to the virus. In other words, they are completely immune. This is purely a matter of genetics. You either have one of the magic genes (there is more than one) or you don’t - but it’s not something to bet your life on.

Now, about those drugs… aside from being expensive, and requiring very precise dosing schedules (such that you may be waking up in the middle of the night to swallow pills and so forth) that MUST be followed EXACTLY to get any benefit whatsoever… they also have side effects. Among them: skyrocketing lipid rates (which can rapidly lead to cardiovascular damage, strokes, and heart attacks in some individuals), redistribution of fat deposits (you get stick-thin arms and legs while your torso adds padding and maybe even a “buffalo hump” between your shoulder blades), kidney damage, pancreatic damage (resulting in insulin-dependent diabetes with all its attendant side effects like poor circulation, blindness, kidney damage, heart damage, etc.), and probably other problems. Now, not everyone suffers these side effects equally - but they certainly have the potential to maim and kill.

To top it off - _eventually the drug cocktails stop working_. They last longer with some people than others (and maintaining that oh-so-precise dosing schedule does seem to lengthen their usefulness) but you’re only buying 10 or 20 years at most. Are those 10 or 20 years worth it? Yeah, probably - if the other side effects don’t kill you first.

In other words THERE IS NO CURE FOR AIDS. Got that?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\
**Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/69 "2003-06-13T01:03:28Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by istara \*  
> Why would only women have to take the test?
> 
> Don’t you guys have constitutional things against that sort of discrimination?

You would think so, huh?

It has to do with pregnancy.

In some jurisdictions there were complaints about mandatory testing of newborns for HIV since, of course, if the baby has HIV so does the mother - and that somehow violated her privacy

Many people advocate testing ALL pregnant women. Of course, at present there is no way to force them to take drugs to prevent transmission of the virus to their baby - maybe that’s the next step. (Not that I would automatically approve with coercion).

Many states require NO testing prior to marriage - Illinois doesn’t. Or at least they didn’t when I got married about 15 years ago.

Anyhow - AZT _will_ greatly reduce the chances of an infected woman passing the infection on to her child. I was in social work back in the late 1980’s - prior to AZT about 1/3 of the children born to infected mothers also acquired the infection (so the fact the woman in the OP has infection-free children is not so unlikely). After AZT was introduced for pregnant HIV+ women, then infection rates in the newborns droped to about 1-3%. So it really can make a huge difference. Which might be enough to justify the preferential testing of women, whether pregnant or getting married.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\
**Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/70 "2003-06-13T14:57:27Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by istara \*  
> \*\ ***CRorex** - how do you end up getting HIV1 or HIV2? Are they different mutations or something? And how prevalent is the nastier one by comparison? \*\*

Since **Crorex** hasn’t been back - here’s the [CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/facts/hiv2.htm)’s info on HIV2. You’ll note that HIV2 is actually quite rare in the West - other sites claim that HIV2 is essentially unknown outside of West Africa (IIRC, it centers on Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Senegal, and Gambia). From other reading I’ve done over the years (IANAD, just an interested layperson) it appears that HIV2 is not as virulent as HIV1.

I also don’t quite agree with **Crorex** ’s assertion about the relative times involved in immunodeficiency - although it’s generally true that HIV2 is much less nasty than HIV1, even within HIV1 there seems to be a very wide range of latency periods. At the broadest level, it may be related to which subfamily (or “clade”) one has. (The predominant clade in the industrialized West is Clade B. Clade C predominates in southern Africa and has been theorized to be more easily transmitted heterosexually; I’ve also seen that alleged about Clade E, which is largely restricted to southeast Asia.)

But even within the clades there’s quite a bit of variation. I personally know one “long-term non-progressors” whose immunity, although deteriorating slowly as measured by T-Cell and viral load counts, has remained basically OK for 20 years - and without antivirals. (AFAIK, this guy does not have any of the known immunizing genetic variants.)

It’s possible, though, that because he was infected early in the epidemic, he lucked out and got a weaker version of HIV1-B. One of the tremendous worries about HIV is that its genetic volatility, particularly now that partially effective treatments are available, may result in new superstrains.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Fin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@Fin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fin_man)\
**Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/71 "2003-06-13T16:39:28Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Broomstick \*  
> \*\*\>sigh\< ☹
> 
> THERE IS **NO** , I REPEAT **NO** CURE FOR HIV/AIDS AT THIS TIME
> 
> Got that? If you have HIV and it progresses to where you lose your immune system cells _you will die_. All the drugs in the world will only delay the inevitable. Got that? THERE IS NO CURE.
> 
> \<snip\>
> 
> \*\*

THERE IS **NO** , I REPEAT **NO** CURE FOR **LIFE** AT THIS TIME

Got that? If you have **life** and it progresses to where you **get old** _you will die_. All the drugs in the world will only delay the inevitable. Got that? THERE IS NO CURE.

So, what’s next, second-hand smoking and cancer?

The guy was an ass.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\
**Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/72 "2003-06-13T21:40:13Z")

</div>

Paging **Jillgat**. Paging Ms. **Jillgat**. Please report to this thread immediately.

That is all.

Esprix

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\
**Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/73 "2003-06-14T04:38:53Z")

</div>

**Broomstick** - thanks for the info. But the women-only test at marriage still makes no sense.

Because any CLEAR test before marriage is totally NEGATED once the marriage is consummated/pregnancy happens, if you don’t know the man’s status in advance.

It reeks of medieval hymen tests to me. I can’t see any logical excuse for not testing both spouses-to-be.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\
**Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/74 "2003-06-14T12:17:10Z")

</div>

It also makes no sense because a woman doesn’t have to be married to have sex or get pregnant

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\
**Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/75 "2003-06-14T12:24:18Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Fin\_man \*  
> THERE IS **NO** , I REPEAT **NO** CURE FOR **LIFE** AT THIS TIME
> 
> Got that? If you have **life** and it progresses to where you **get old** _you will die_. All the drugs in the world will only delay the inevitable. Got that? THERE IS NO CURE.
> 
> So, what’s next, second-hand smoking and cancer?
> 
> The guy was an ass.

Thank you for that appraisal, dickhead.

I guess it whooshed by you that I was, in part reacting to a sentiment creeping into the posts that, with the anti-virals, HIV is suddenly “not so bad” anymore. It IS bad. It is still a horrible nasty, vile disease and it still kills people.

Here’s the difference, bub - if I don’t catch any diseases and don’t acquire any disorders that old age you’re talking about may be as far off as 60-70 years for me, and if I take care of myself I may be active, independent, and feeling pretty good up until the very end. More likely, it’s 40-50 years away, and I’ll feel crummy the last year or two.

If I caught HIV tomorrow in all likelihood I would be dead in 10-20 years, and the last 5-10 (if not the whole time period) would be spent choking down dozens of pills daily, in and out of hospitals, with many episodes of pain and suffering, potentially going blind, or crazy from brain damage, and otherwise having a Real Bad Time.

I’m sorry if you can’t understand the difference between a chronic and ultimately fatal disease and a potential half-century of good health.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Sivalensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Sivalensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sivalensis)\
**Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/76 "2003-06-14T14:00:21Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by istara \*  
> \*\*And I can’t re-find the article, but I also read that her child is HIV free, thank god, and she is now with a second partner or husband, and they also have an HIV free child.
> 
> In the lengthier version, IIRC from the Sydney Morning Herald, the judge’s ruling contains an estimation that she is not likely to live to see her children reach a certain age, and the ruling includes compensation for her first child (though not the second, whose father is HIV free), and most horrifyingly they actually estimate her death year.  
> \*\*

Did this strike anyone else? She married again! She had another child. Wouldn’t that presume that she would be passing HIV on to her second partner because her first lied to her? So now there are two victims of this ass!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\
**Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/77 "2003-06-14T19:16:18Z")

</div>

**Sivalensis** - no, I don’t think so. She found out she was HIV positive with the first pregnancy. Therefore it is likely that the doctors prescribed her the right drugs, and gave her safety advice, etc. So although there are no details, it could be that she and her second partner use condoms, and perhaps used IVF or something to conceive the second child, or perhaps a home method.

Her second partner is HIV free, as are both children. And obviously she was honest with the second partner (unlike her first husband was with her) because of this whole court case coming out.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\
**Post date:** [June 15, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820/78 "2003-06-15T03:59:15Z")

</div>

Even more amazingly there was a small piece in yesterdays Daily Telegraph in which the woman revealed that she had truly loved her former husband and had intended to spend the rest of her life with him and that she **forgives** him for what he did.

[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/total-fucker-fails-to-tell-fiancee-hes-hiv-marries-her-and-infects-her/180820.md?page=3)