# Tottenham north London riots **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 7, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836 "2011-08-07T17:06:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/61 "2011-08-09T07:37:51Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I’m in the Philly suburbs and yes, they have been having a problem with violent flash mobs in the city. Apparently they’re organizing through social media. Why people want to gather to commit random violence against innocents is beyond me. That’s the nature of social media - people doing stuff with no idea why they’re doing it. Copy this cat to your status to show that you’re against animal cruelty, etc. No shortage of impressionable morons in the world, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/62 "2011-08-09T07:49:29Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > The UK affords social welfare and accomodation to the poor. Maybe they should try being poor in India? > > Also, poverty doesn’t necessarily mean people turn to crime. Look at the Chinese Americans discussed on p32 - 33 of Walsh’s “Crime: A Bio-social Analysis”. > > [Race and Crime: A Biosocial Analysis - Anthony Walsh - Google Books](http://tinyurl.com/3nhe4ea) Saying “it’s worse in another part of the world that you’ve never been to, so buck up” isn’t going to make any impact on a person who has grown up in relative poverty to people around them and has little prospect for the future. Income disparity, which is pretty big in the UK, is a big predictor of crime. Funny that it’s showing its ugly head now. > [@code\_grey](#): > > that’s easy - deport them for resettlement in the West … > Indies from whence they came from in the first place 🆒 Okay - this IS racist. THEY are, as far as we can tell, all working poor Londoners and their teenage children. Even if a large number of them appear to be from ethnic minorities, they’re not more from the west indies than I am. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/63 "2011-08-09T08:16:11Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > :rolleyes: > > 1. What goes up, must come down. Bullets tend to come down with force similar to what they went up with. People can get killed when that happens. Way to go, genius. > > 2. Tasering a few “random looters” will probably take those looters out of the game. However, it will not stop the dozens, or even hundreds, of the looters around them from turning on you. How fast can you recharge that taser…? > > 3. The “cowards” are armed with boards and pieces of pipe, they’re smashing things, using what have been described as “petrol bombs” to set entire blocks of London on fire, and are throwing bricks at the police. Sure, they \*might \*scatter… but it sure looks like they’re not intimidated by authority or what force is already being applied. > > 4. Do I have to explain how stupid it is to go to _Star Wars_ for advice on how to deal with the real world? I’d like to note that there are other ways of dealing with riots - tear gas, fire hoses, rubber bullets, etc. Note that I’m not saying that they \*should \*use those kind of measures, just that they _can_. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/64 "2011-08-09T10:07:25Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Saying “it’s worse in another part of the world that you’ve never been to, so buck up” isn’t going to make any impact on a person who has grown up in relative poverty to people around them and has little prospect for the future. Income disparity, which is pretty big in the UK, is a big predictor of crime. Funny that it’s showing its ugly head now. Talk about funny, I remember back when the poverty-stricken masses didn’t organise riots via mobile phones and the internets… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/65 "2011-08-09T10:53:39Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Talk about funny, I remember back when the poverty-stricken masses didn’t organise riots via mobile phones and the internets… Hard to do that when they hadn’t been invented yet. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/66 "2011-08-09T11:15:01Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Talk about funny, I remember back when the poverty-stricken masses didn’t organise riots via mobile phones and the internets… > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Hard to do that when they hadn’t been invented yet. Quite - and then there’s the fact that mobile phones are extremely cheap all things considered. I said relative poverty, not absolute grinding can’t-afford-food-and-shelter poverty. Fact is that wealth disparity in this country is stark and growing wider, as we’re in a time of severe economic hardship the reality of this is going to be felt harder by people. I’m not saying that this is a riot against class inequality or anything like that, because it’s clearly nothing like as organised or ideological, but the fact that people seem more interested in looting than actually attacking state power or anything says a lot, and they’re doing it in their own communities rather than necessarily targeting richer ones (although that’s starting to shift a bit as attacks are starting to happen more widely). Yes, it’s pretty clear that those carrying out these attacks are urban poor who are largely in ethnic minorities - but again being in an ethnic minority in London tends to correlate quite highly with poverty, so you can draw your own conclusions from that. People are getting fed up, pissed off and tired of the misery that living in this country is right now, and I’m not at all surprised we’re watching these events unfold. The only thing that is surprising is that it’s taking so long for the police and government authorities to intervene decisively considering what is at stake (this is going to reflect exceptionally badly on London’s image given it’s hosting the olympics next year, and it’ll be massively disruptive to the local London economy which is a huge chunk of the country’s output). ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/67 "2011-08-09T11:16:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Hard to do that when they hadn’t been invented yet. Well, [quite](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ComicallyMissingThePoint?from=Main.CompletelyMissingThePoint), I guess. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/68 "2011-08-09T11:19:45Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > The UK affords social welfare and accomodation to the poor. Although the current government is trying as hard as it can to stop doing so. > [@Alessan](#): > > I’d like to note that there are other ways of dealing with riots - tear gas, fire hoses, rubber bullets, etc. Note that I’m not saying that they \*should \*use those kind of measures, just that they _can_. Last night the fire hoses were clearly needed elsewhere, but I am generally in favour of them as crowd deterrents. Cold wet people go home, and their phones stop working. Sorry, **Malacandra** , I’m being a bit thick this morning - could you explain your point more clearly? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/69 "2011-08-09T11:24:42Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Sorry, **Malacandra** , I’m being a bit thick this morning - could you explain your point more clearly? I suspect it was an attempt to claim that poor people don’t have phones, which is incorrect of course. ---
**Author:** ![Hrududu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Hrududu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hrududu)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/70 "2011-08-09T11:48:02Z")
One of the most depressing things I’ve seen in a long time [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex\_ya4-Oo](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo) Group of guys help an injured young guy up, then proceed to rob him. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/71 "2011-08-09T11:50:31Z")
I read it (Malacandra’s comment) as a comment on relative standards of poverty. The vast majority of the people rioting have somewhere to live, TVs, mobile phones, are well fed, and a fairly high percentage will have internet access. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/72 "2011-08-09T12:03:33Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I read it (Malacandra’s comment) as a comment on relative standards of poverty. The vast majority of the people rioting have somewhere to live, TVs, mobile phones, are well fed, and a fairly high percentage will have internet access. Precisely. These people get benefits and handouts that make them far wealthier than the working classes of a few generations ago. Look at the video footage - these are teenagers with expensive branded clothes, mobile phones and jewellery. They have no idea what true hardship is, but they think the world owes them everything. Don’t try to bring a political dimension into this. It’s greed, pure and simple. The kids rioting were not protesting against the inequities of British society; they just know that they can smash, burn and steal property with no comeback whatsoever and want to profit from it. Hence it is spreading across the country. People are realising they can do what they want and face no consequences, and they think: “That looks like a laugh, I’ll have some of that.” It makes you realise just how thin and fragile the veneer of civilisation in this country is. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/73 "2011-08-09T12:08:29Z")
A wise comment was just posted on another discussion site I frequent: > [@](#): > > I think you’ve got to ask why most people don’t riot. All the people who are sitting there at home watching the telly in horror; who are saying “this isn’t my London, this is awful, my London is safe”; for whom the excitement of getting a new telly isn’t worth the danger and horror of being outside nicking something or setting something on fire. What stops you? You value your safety, your house, your neighbourhood, your family; you identify with the people losing their homes, their livelihoods, the business their family has owned for fifty years, their jobs, whatever. > > If someone’s out on the street setting fire to a building that’s got people’s homes in it, they’ve either never had, have lost, or don’t value all that stuff. Not only do they not care about what they personally might lose, but they can’t identify with what the people whose flats are being burned or whose shops are being wrecked are losing. > > The communities that are being damaged aren’t rich, they’re poor communities and a lot of the riots are poor people damaging their own communities because they don’t see anything their to value. That’s terrible. You can dismiss that as “they’re all just yobs who should get sense of perspective”, but I don’t know, I think it’s saying something much bigger about society that there are people who don’t have that sense of attachment. I don’t think you can make it happen by telling people they should have it. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/74 "2011-08-09T12:10:30Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I read it (Malacandra’s comment) as a comment on relative standards of poverty. The vast majority of the people rioting have somewhere to live, TVs, mobile phones, are well fed, and a fairly high percentage will have internet access. Exactly. This is only “poverty” by a very strange definition of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Hallucinex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba9def/32.png) [@Hallucinex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hallucinex)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/75 "2011-08-09T12:24:32Z")
In slightly less depressing news: [Crowdsourcing London’s clean-up](http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-08/09/london-clean-up) [Riot clean up in Clapham Junction](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCsrcnUy8ao) [Riot shield tea-tray](http://www.flickr.com/photos/pixel-eight/6024429000/) And in surreal news: [Iran urges UK to restrain police](http://www.presstv.ir/detail/1%E2%80%8B93030.html) ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/76 "2011-08-09T12:27:08Z")
> [@Hallucinex](#): > > In slightly less depressing news: > > [Crowdsourcing London’s clean-up](http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-08/09/london-clean-up) like ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/77 "2011-08-09T12:29:47Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > that’s easy - deport them for resettlement in the West … > > Indies from whence they came from in the first place 🆒 Dude, not cool - there are plenty of groups other than “West Indies” involved, and if you were paying attention you’d know it has more to do with relative poverty and class issues than ethnicity. In other words, don’t be a racist jerk. It makes you look bad. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/78 "2011-08-09T12:30:53Z")
[QUOTE=Hallucinex;14118390. And in surreal news: [Iran urges UK to restrain police] ([http://www.presstv.ir/detail/1​93030.html](http://www.presstv.ir/detail/1%E2%80%8B93030.html)) [/QUOTE] Harldy surreal. As the UK never misses a chance to lecture Iran on police brutality after a riot; I am sure a the Iranians wish to return the favour. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/79 "2011-08-09T12:38:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > > [@Qin Shi Huangdi](#): > > > > > > Just make an example by firing bullets into the air and tasering a few random looters. They are cowards who’ll scatter at real force and to quote Grand Moff Tarkin “Use the fear of force, not force itself”. > > > > 1. What goes up, must come down. Bullets tend to come down with force similar to what they went up with. People can get killed when that happens. Way to go, genius. > > > > 2. Tasering a few “random looters” will probably take those looters out of the game. However, it will not stop the dozens, or even hundreds, of the looters around them from turning on you. How fast can you recharge that taser…? > > > > 3. The “cowards” are armed with boards and pieces of pipe, they’re smashing things, using what have been described as “petrol bombs” to set entire blocks of London on fire, and are throwing bricks at the police. Sure, they might scatter… but it sure looks like they’re not intimidated by authority or what force is already being applied. > > > > 4. Do I have to explain how stupid it is to go to Star Wars for advice on how to deal with the real world? > > I’d like to note that there are other ways of dealing with riots - tear gas, fire hoses, rubber bullets, etc. Note that I’m not saying that they \*should \*use those kind of measures, just that they _can_. Well, sure - but [del]Curtis LeMay[/del] Qin Shi was spouting stupid advice and I felt compelled to point out the stupid. While I’m glad the London police didn’t go nuts with a violent response, fact is they’ll have to ratchet up the force to get this situation under control. It could look quite brutal before it’s all over, but they can’t let the city burn and the bystanders get injured or killed. Given the seriousness of reality quoting a “space nazi” is crass at best - but typical of Curtis. He’s young, so I’ll forgive him his all too apparent ignorance of what an urban riot is all about, but really, he needs to get a better grip on history and the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/80 "2011-08-09T12:42:25Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Talk about funny, I remember back when the poverty-stricken masses didn’t organise riots via mobile phones and the internets… Only because mobile phones and social media hadn’t been invented yet in the 1965 Watts neighborhood of LA. While some of this MIGHT involve “flash mobs”, at this point I seriously doubt anyone is organizing anything, it’s mostly just a free-for-all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836.md?page=5)