# Tottenham north London riots **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 7, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836 "2011-08-07T17:06:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/101 "2011-08-09T19:18:56Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Can we start a pool on when an American will post, “This is what happens when you don’t give policemen guns.” ? > 🙂 Does post [19](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14116090&postcount=19) suit ya 😉 ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/102 "2011-08-09T19:26:06Z")
Yep, all of developed world is desperate to follow the hugely successful USA social model. They’ll all be after that fantastic system of Gov next. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/103 "2011-08-09T19:45:17Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Does post [19](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14116090&postcount=19) suit ya 😉 Nah, not redneck enough. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/104 "2011-08-09T19:48:10Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > They’ll all be after that fantastic system of Gov next. No doubt. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/105 "2011-08-09T21:46:32Z")
Well I guess the Met’s found out that it’s crowd control practices work well with middle class students but not so well with working class rioters ‘part5icpating in some anarchy’. Here in NZ the news that rubber bullets would be issued to police “for the first time in Britain” made me do a double take. Surely they’ve been used in Northern Ireland in the past? Or is that in reference to the island rather than the country? The Guardian’s [live blog](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/09/london-uk-riots-day-four-live) is a good source for those of us on the other side of the world. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/106 "2011-08-09T21:49:58Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Here in NZ the news that rubber bullets would be issued to police “for the first time in Britain” made me do a double take. Surely they’ve been used in Northern Ireland in the past? Or is that in reference to the island rather than the country? Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain (I know your quotation did not include the “Great”). It’s the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. And yes, rubber bullets were used many times in Northern Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/107 "2011-08-09T21:53:10Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Here in NZ the news that rubber bullets would be issued to police “for the first time in Britain” made me do a double take. Surely they’ve been used in Northern Ireland in the past? Or is that in reference to the island rather than the country? Britain (great or otherwise) doesn’t include Northern Ireland, it refers to the island comprising Scotland, Wales and England. So yes, technically it would be true to say rubber bullets haven’t been used here, even if they’ve been used in Northern Ireland. [United Kingdom, Great Britain and England](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/108 "2011-08-09T22:13:40Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > No, I’m pretty sure there was no strategy. Greedy opportunistic looting and vandalizing pretty much is what it is. Replace the word “opportunistic” with “systematic” and you’ve also just described the world economy. Which rather undercuts the moral high ground of the authorities since it makes them come across as saying “Here, now! Stop immediately! You’re only allowed to enrich yourselves at the expense of others if you’re already rich!” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/109 "2011-08-10T00:23:36Z")
Its absurd that they aren’t sending the army in or indeed not using violent force against rioters. As I’ve said non-lethal force is necessary: batons, rubber bullets, water cannons, tear gas, and all that jazz. On a happier note much as Korean shopowners defended their areas of LA from the baying, half-crazed mobs in 1992, Bangladeshi and Turkish shopkeepers are doing the same: [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/vigilante-groups-aim-to-combat-riots-2334910.html](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/vigilante-groups-aim-to-combat-riots-2334910.html) ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/110 "2011-08-10T00:26:55Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Britain (great or otherwise) doesn’t include Northern Ireland, it refers to the island comprising Scotland, Wales and England. So yes, technically it would be true to say rubber bullets haven’t been used here, even if they’ve been used in Northern Ireland. > [United Kingdom, Great Britain and England](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10) Except to complicate matters, “Britain” and “Great Britain” are often used as shorthand for the UK as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/111 "2011-08-10T00:31:37Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Its absurd that they aren’t sending the army in or indeed not using violent force against rioters. As I’ve said non-lethal force is necessary: batons, rubber bullets, water cannons, tear gas, and all that jazz. It might well be because other times they’ve used their army against their citizens it hasn’t ended well. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/112 "2011-08-10T00:33:41Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > It might well be because other times they’ve used their army against their citizens it hasn’t ended well. In Northern Ireland, the IRA and Sinn Fein were organized and could carry on a campaign of murder and terror even after military suppression, these are just random mobs who can be broken up at the sight of tanks. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/113 "2011-08-10T00:39:42Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > In Northern Ireland, the IRA and Sinn Fein were organized and could carry on a campaign of murder and terror even after military suppression, these are just random mobs who can be broken up at the sight of tanks. In Northern Ireland, the army terrorised people who might not otherwise have been sympathetic to the IRA into giving them moral support. They also murdered civilians and contributed towards the civil unrest they were supposed to be quelling. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/114 "2011-08-10T00:46:37Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > In Northern Ireland, the army terrorised people who might not otherwise have been sympathetic to the IRA into giving them moral support. They also murdered civilians and contributed towards the civil unrest they were supposed to be quelling. I did not advocate shooting or killing rioters (except if the rioters were actively trying to kill people) and I said that only the deserving (ie looters) should be targeted. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/115 "2011-08-10T00:54:37Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I did not advocate shooting or killing rioters (except if the rioters were actively trying to kill people) and I said that only the deserving (ie looters) should be targeted. You presume that the people you are going to try to intimidate will actually _believe_ that only the “deserving” were targeted. And you presume that soldiers are actually going to kill only looters once told to go out and start killing people. And you presume that people are going to take it well when headlines like “14 Year Old ‘Looter’ Slain By Army During Riots” start showing up. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/116 "2011-08-10T01:09:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You presume that the people you are going to try to intimidate will actually _believe_ that only the “deserving” were targeted. And you presume that soldiers are actually going to kill only looters once told to go out and start killing people. And you presume that people are going to take it well when headlines like “14 Year Old ‘Looter’ Slain By Army During Riots” start showing up. As I’ve said I did not advocate killing anyone-I specified non-lethal methods. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/117 "2011-08-10T01:09:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You’re missing the point that some of these people might believe they’ll never hold a job no matter what they do - and thus, have nothing to lose. Longer prison sentences might assist in that respect. As Freakanomics author Steven Levitt pointed out, increased prison sentences and more police helped reduce the US crime rate. Another factor Levitt mentioned was the Roe v Wade decision which made it easier for members of the underclass to have abortions. A policy implication might be to make welfare benefits in the UK conditional on having a temporary birth control shot to protect against pregnancy. This would reduce the growth of the underclass. Here is Levitt’s [paper](http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUnderstandingWhy). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/118 "2011-08-10T01:25:53Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > A policy implication might be to make welfare benefits in the UK conditional on having a temporary birth control shot to protect against pregnancy. This would reduce the growth of the underclass. That’s like a police state. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/119 "2011-08-10T01:28:55Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > That’s like a police state. Bullsh1t. Most countries don’t even have welfare systems. It isn’t much to expect people to use contraception while they receive it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/120 "2011-08-10T01:37:00Z")
It’s a civil right violation, Dude. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836.md?page=7)