# Tottenham north London riots **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 7, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836 "2011-08-07T17:06:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/121 "2011-08-10T01:40:19Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > It’s a civil right violation, Dude. No, they have the right not to be sterilized. They just can’t leech off money from the government. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/122 "2011-08-10T01:44:52Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > A policy implication might be to make welfare benefits in the UK conditional on having a temporary birth control shot to protect against pregnancy. This would reduce the growth of the underclass. Ah, good old fashioned eugenics rearing its head. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/123 "2011-08-10T01:49:23Z")
Just round them up and let them riot in camps. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/124 "2011-08-10T01:55:50Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > In Northern Ireland, the IRA and Sinn Fein were organized and could carry on a campaign of murder and terror even after military suppression, these are just random mobs who can be broken up at the sight of tanks. In 1967 in Detroit the US sent in tanks _and_ machine guns… and the fighting went on for two more days. For that matter, earlier this year in Libya an unarmed mob _captured_ a tank. I don’t really care to know how many died in the mob attempting it before they succeeded, but succeed they did. Try looking up a little history before shooting off your mouth, Curtis. The rioters enormously outnumber the police, and numbers count. Sending in the military is really a last resort. As soon as you do that the death toll WILL jump. Soldiers aren’t taught to police, they’re taught to kill. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/125 "2011-08-10T02:44:48Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The rioters enormously outnumber the police, and numbers count. Especially when you aren’t willing to go all totalitarian-dictatorship on them and simply massacre them with machine guns. Which I don’t quite see as a likely strategy of modern British police. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/126 "2011-08-10T02:51:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Ah, good old fashioned eugenics rearing its head. I suppose you prefer [Idiocracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy) and dysgenics 😛 If people want to receive ongoing state payments and accomodation the least they can do is use contraception. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/127 "2011-08-10T03:36:23Z")
He didn’t say where he found these figures, but a British DJ over here on Bangkok radio this morning said he’d read there were 3300 more police out on the streets for the royal wedding than were out last night. Is anyone able to confirm that? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/128 "2011-08-10T04:11:40Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > I suppose you prefer [Idiocracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy) and dysgenics 😛 I’m not interested in catering to such bigoted fantasies about the poor. Nor am I interested in yet another round of sterilizing people for the terrible crime of not having enough money. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/129 "2011-08-10T04:24:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’m not interested in catering to such bigoted fantasies about the poor. Nor am I interested in yet another round of sterilizing people for the terrible crime of not having enough money. Not sterilizing, temporary birth control shots. These only last 3 months at a time. Also, it wouldn’t be compulsory. > **[Birth Control Shot (for Teens)](https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/contraception-depo.html)** > > Before you consider having sex, you need to know how to protect yourself. Read this article about the birth control shot and find out how it works - and how well. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/130 "2011-08-10T04:30:10Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Also, it wouldn’t be compulsory. Oh, please. “Get the shot or we let you starve to death in the snow” is just as compulsory as if you walked up to them and pointed a gun at their head. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/131 "2011-08-10T05:21:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh, please. “Get the shot or we let you starve to death in the snow” is just as compulsory as if you walked up to them and pointed a gun at their head. It rarely snows in London. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/132 "2011-08-10T05:22:33Z")
> [@Quint](#): > > It rarely snows in London. Especially in August. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/133 "2011-08-10T05:33:09Z")
> [@Quint](#): > > It rarely snows in London. Ah, and starving to death in the rain is _so_ much better. ---
**Author:** ![nicole1912](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9de0a6/32.png) [@nicole1912](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicole1912)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/134 "2011-08-10T06:59:28Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Not sterilizing, temporary birth control shots. These only last 3 months at a time. > > Also, it wouldn’t be compulsory. > > [Birth Control Shot (for Teens) | Nemours KidsHealth](http://kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/contraception/contraception_depo.html) What would you do for the women who can’t use hormonal birth control? Or who just don’t want to? It’s not like the side effects of using the pill/the birth control injection are always small, and you don’t know til you take it how it will affect you. They’re just out of luck and should starve? I think the whole idea of not allowing people on benefits to have children is insane, to be clear - but the insistence on hormonal birth control suggests not even the minimum of thought into the practicalities has gone into this before fingers have started typing. If you’re going to propose ways to dehumanise poor people and strip them of their human rights, you could at least think of the practical issues involved and suggest something workable. ---
**Author:** ![Hallucinex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba9def/32.png) [@Hallucinex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hallucinex)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/135 "2011-08-10T08:14:42Z")
[Someone looted a lute!](http://yfrog.com/ke2bcauj) Although things kicked off in other cities to the north last night, in London at least things seemed pretty quiet. A lot of shops closed up early and shuttered or boarded up in preparation after rumours of various spots that were supposed targets. But there were a lot of police out on the streets, and generally few signs of the rumoured mobs of dickheads. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/136 "2011-08-10T08:43:32Z")
Last night was quiet, despite tense rumors flying around on Twitter that rioters were just around the corner!!! All the pubs near us were closed although there was really nothing going on, as all the looting on our high street seemed to have happened on Monday night. [The Guardian has a good comment piece up](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting): > [@](#): > > I think it’s just about possible that you could see your actions refashioned into a noble cause if you were stealing the staples: bread, milk. But it can’t be done while you’re nicking trainers, let alone laptops. In Clapham Junction, the only shop left untouched was Waterstone’s, and the looters of Boots had, unaccountably, stolen a load of Imodium. So this kept Twitter alive all night with tweets about how uneducated these people must be and the condition of their digestive systems. While that palled after a bit, it remains the case that these are shopping riots, characterised by their consumer choices: that’s the bit we’ve never seen before. A violent act by the authorities, triggering a howl of protest – that bit is as old as time. But crowds moving from shopping centre to shopping centre? … > > Between these poles is a more pragmatic reading: this is what happens when people don’t have anything, when they have their noses constantly rubbed in stuff they can’t afford, and they have no reason ever to believe that they will be able to afford it. Hiller takes up this idea: “Consumer society relies on your ability to participate in it. So what we recognise as a consumer now was born out of shorter hours, higher wages and the availability of credit. If you’re dealing with a lot of people who don’t have the last two, that contract doesn’t work. They seem to be targeting the stores selling goods they would normally consume.” ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/137 "2011-08-10T08:45:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > In 1967 in Detroit the US sent in tanks _and_ machine guns… and the fighting went on for two more days. > > For that matter, earlier this year in Libya an unarmed mob _captured_ a tank. I don’t really care to know how many died in the mob attempting it before they succeeded, but succeed they did. > > Try looking up a little history before shooting off your mouth, Curtis. The rioters enormously outnumber the police, and numbers count. > > Sending in the military is really a last resort. As soon as you do that the death toll WILL jump. Soldiers aren’t taught to police, they’re taught to kill. I agree. There are times when the Army is needed. That is when the situation has reached a stage where all other things must be subordinated to the necessity of restoring order; like say if the police had been chased out of most of the London Boroughs (like say Northern Ireland pre [Operation Mortornan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Motorman).). The other way the Army could help is to provide specialist help in aid of the authorities, that I am sure has already happened if and how it is required. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/138 "2011-08-10T10:00:38Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Its absurd that they aren’t sending the army in There are many reasons why this isn’t a great idea. The ones about putting the army on the streets should only ever be used as a last resort is the main one. Britain isn’t a tin pot dictatorship that needs to quell public disorder with the army. There’s also a political one. The Tories are pushing through very big cuts on the police which will lower numbers considerably. Putting troops on the ground would give the opposition more sticks to beat them with re: not enough police to do the job. It’s also just a silly and potentially deadly reactionary move. Plastic bullets and water cannon however are on the table and can be used by the police if they are ok’d by the politicans. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/139 "2011-08-10T11:24:47Z")
> [@The Guardian via SecondJudith\[/quote](#): > > Hiller takes up this idea: “Consumer society relies on your ability to participate in it. So what we recognise as a consumer now was born out of shorter hours, higher wages and the availability of credit. If you’re dealing with a lot of people who don’t have the last two, that contract doesn’t work. They seem to be targeting the stores selling goods they would normally consume.” I read that as “Hitler”, which led to a worrying moment where I thought, hmm, that makes sense, but what did Adolf know about the consumer society? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836/140 "2011-08-10T11:25:19Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Not sterilizing, temporary birth control shots. These only last 3 months at a time. > > Also, it wouldn’t be compulsory. > > [Birth Control Shot (for Teens) | Nemours KidsHealth](http://kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/contraception/contraception_depo.html) Saying “Either get this shot or you starve in the gutter” IS making it compulsory. What about the expected 3 in 100 failures per year? You do understand what “not 100% effective” means, yes? What about the fact hormonal birth control increases the risk of stroke? What provision will there be for the inevitable strokes in young women that will arise from this? And, as usual, it all about controlling the women - let the men run riot, they don’t have to worry about any babies they father, no punishment or coercion for _them_, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tottenham-north-london-riots/591836.md?page=8)