# Toughest leaders in history
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [August 18, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595 "2013-08-18T22:57:38Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/41 "2013-08-20T15:00:47Z")
No DQ for cannibalism, this is an all-era event.
I want to put in a quick word for Sacajawea.
Not a fighter, and a leader only in a local sense. But tough enough to be a legend.
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### Author:  [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/42 "2013-08-20T15:14:10Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#):
>
> Why would Putin beat Netanyahu? Netanyahu was in Sayeret Matkal, which practices Krav maga. You’d assume an elite special forces operative trained in a deadly hand to hand combat art would beat a KGB operative trained in Judo. Krav Maga, unlike Judo, is designed to work in a real world fight ASAP so you can move onto other issues. Judo is a competitive sport, not a method of winning a fight as fast as possible.
There’s an argument (not one I am making right now, mind you, but it gets made) that competitive combative sports are better training for real world conflict that sports that focus solely on the so-called deadly moves (again, not that I am arguing that is all that Krav Maga is) because the fighters use their techniques full contact against fully resisting opponents; i.e., you may not be sure that you can actually execute that knee break or throat punch against an actively resisting opponent, but you know that you can knock him out with your cross or take him to the floor with your hip throw because you’ve done in successfully many times before. Even putting that aside for a moment, eye gouges, groin strikes, hair pulls, clavicle grabs, throat punches, improvised weapons, and all of the etcetera that make Krav what it is are all going to be illegal in the OP’s hypo.
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### Author:  [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/43 "2013-08-20T15:43:02Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#):
>
> Amin was 6’ 4" - according to google, he had six inches in height on Teddy, and nine on Putin. Yeah, yeah, elite martial arts skills. Assuming both sides are at least minimally competent fighters, I’ll take the height and reach. (Which is also why I don’t think I’d take Amin over the seven-foot-tall berserker viking.)
Not always a great standard. Mike Tyson was at a thorough height/weight disadvantage in most of his fights during his glory days, and we saw how that turned out.
Size matters when skills are comparable, but I don’t think skills are comparable here. Amin may have been a very good boxer, but I’ll take the grappler in any match where the ground game is allowed.
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### Author:  [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/44 "2013-08-20T16:00:34Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#):
>
> … In any case that discussion ends when automatic weapons are invented, a ten year old girl from today with a Glock would put down Miyamoto Musashi with his katana but it says little about the individuals.
how far apart would they have to be for you to make such a bold assertion?
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### Author:  [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/45 "2013-08-20T16:10:17Z")
> [@shijinn](#):
>
> how far apart would they have to be for you to make such a bold assertion?
Effective range of a Glock-17 is 50m, even at a tenth of that a swordsman has nothing to harm the shooter while the shooter can inflict fatal injuries. If they started right next to each other the swordsman would have it.
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### Author:  [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/46 "2013-08-20T16:10:20Z")
> [@pravnik](#):
>
> Amin is a good addition to the discussion. Amin would be a tough opponent in boxing, but if the fight is MMA rules as per the op his skill set might be limited. James Toney had a championship boxing career with an 74-8-5 record (45 by knockout), but when he tried to make the switch to MMA Randy Couture defeated him fairly quickly by simply not boxing him - Couture shot for his legs, had him on the ground in 25 seconds and submitted him in a minute or two. If Amin can’t expand his skill set to at least staying off of the ground, he might be in trouble (if he doesn’t get DQ’d for trying to eat his opponent first).
IMHO, the real reason for the scarcity of great boxers in MMA is money … I believe UFC fighters aspire to earn around three or four million directly from fighting. I read recently that Lennox Lewis earned 150 million from boxing, and that Vilale Klitschko made around 65 million. We’ll never know what the very best boxers could do in a UFC fight. I presume a top champion would tune his training to be wary of take-downs and kicks.
The UFC rules sort of take the fun out of this hypothetical fight. Tearing at eyes and nose, biting, breaking fingers, grabbing testicles, are all very disturbing and distracting elements in a real fight that MAY change the outcome in favor of the more vicious opponent. I’d like to see “no rules” fights between historical characters.
Oh, also … Putin isn’t James Bond … he’s “M”.
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### Author:  [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/47 "2013-08-20T16:32:27Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#):
>
> Effective range of a Glock-17 is 50m, even at a tenth of that a swordsman has nothing to harm the shooter while the shooter can inflict fatal injuries. If they started right next to each other the swordsman would have it.
aha! you’re wrong. Mythbusters tried this with a puny knife. - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckz7EmDxhtU](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckz7EmDxhtU)
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### Author:  [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/48 "2013-08-20T16:32:59Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#):
>
> IMHO, the real reason for the scarcity of great boxers in MMA is money … I believe UFC fighters aspire to earn around three or four million directly from fighting. I read recently that Lennox Lewis earned 150 million from boxing, and that Vilale Klitschko made around 65 million. We’ll never know what the very best boxers could do in a UFC fight. I presume a top champion would tune his training to be wary of take-downs and kicks.
Very true, although after Mayweather trash talked MMA for the umpteenth time and said he could beat any fighter in the UFC (including the light heavyweight and heavyweight champions), Dana White invited Mayweather to come to the table where they would talk about a fight purse with numbers that would make sense to him. Chuck Liddell also offered to contribute a not insubstantial amount of his own dough for Mayweather to get into the ring. Mayweather either declined on the grounds that UFC couldn’t afford him or ducked, depending on who you ask. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/49 "2013-08-20T16:48:05Z")
> [@shijinn](#):
>
> aha! you’re wrong. Mythbusters tried this with a puny knife. - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckz7EmDxhtU](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckz7EmDxhtU)
A samurai would never dishonour himself by flinging away his soul like some common bandit! That said, it would be interesting to see what range a sword could be thrown and be lethal; I suspect due to the weight and aerodynamics it would be a lot less than a knife.
On why I was such a buzzkill with the UFC rules; I wanted a bit of balance between the modern and the ancient. As pointed out a Spartan would probably see a UFC fight as a watered down pankration probably fit for Athenian schoolchildren. But without them I think more ‘civilised’ leaders would be ripped apart and give too much of a bias to the ancient.
Worth noting that we’re talking against other leaders, not MMA fighters - I’m simply co-opting the rules for a bit of balance. How boxers have fared is a valid point but it’s against experienced MMA fighters and not, say, Abe Lincoln or Attila the Hun. There’s a sentence you don’t read often.
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### Author:  [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/50 "2013-08-20T17:02:35Z")
> [@Xema](#):
>
> Probably because of the number of seriously badass things he was able to accomplish.
Uh huh. He probably ran a 2:10 mile, had a 300 IQ, and could jump over a mountain too.
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### Author:  [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/51 "2013-08-20T17:06:30Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#):
>
> I want to put in a quick word for Sacajawea.
> Not a fighter, and a leader only in a local sense. But tough enough to be a legend.
Tough she was, though not in any sort of MMA sense. And she did a lot more following than leading.
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### Author:  [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/52 "2013-08-20T17:19:51Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#):
>
> A samurai would never dishonour himself by flinging away his soul like some common bandit! That said, it would be interesting to see what range a sword could be thrown and be lethal; I suspect due to the weight and aerodynamics it would be a lot less than a knife. …
watch the video - the knife carrrier _ran_ towards his opponent. even when he was shot first, his forward momentum brought the knife crashing into his target. a sword’s range would be deceptively long.
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### Author:  [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/53 "2013-08-20T17:24:28Z")
> [@pravnik](#):
>
> Very true, although after Mayweather trash talked MMA for the umpteenth time and said he could beat any fighter in the UFC (including the light heavyweight and heavyweight champions), Dana White invited Mayweather to come to the table where they would talk about a fight purse with numbers that would make sense to him. Chuck Liddell also offered to contribute a not insubstantial amount of his own dough for Mayweather to get into the ring. Mayweather either declined on the grounds that UFC couldn’t afford him or ducked, depending on who you ask. 🙂
The famed fight between Muhammad Ali and Tony Inoki was funny/boring and proved Ali could be taken off his feet, but that he could get back up again. Pointless.
Mayweather may have had second thoughts about serious injuries specific to grappling, or he could be a blowhard at heart. When will Seagal and Van Damme settle their feud? That could prove hilarious.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/54 "2013-08-20T17:25:45Z")
> [@shijinn](#):
>
> watch the video - the knife carrrier _ran_ towards his opponent. even when he was shot first, his forward momentum brought the knife crashing into his target. a sword’s range would be deceptively long.
Having trouble accessing YT right now; assuming you mean the old dead man’s ten in that the swordsman could still rush forward and fight even with a couple of bullets in him; although if the match ends up with one fella dead with a sword stuck in him and the other bled to death from a gunshot wound who’s the toughest there?
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### Author:  [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/55 "2013-08-20T17:28:18Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#):
>
> When will Seagal and Van Damme settle their feud? That could prove hilarious.
Proof once again that the fights I _really_ want to see are never on Pay-Per-View.
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### Author:  [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/56 "2013-08-20T17:55:01Z")
> [@StusBlues](#):
>
> Not always a great standard. Mike Tyson was at a thorough height/weight disadvantage in most of his fights during his glory days, and we saw how that turned out.
None of the guys we’re talking about are remotely comparable to Mike Tyson (barring maybe the viking berserker guy).
> [@](#):
>
> Size matters when skills are comparable, but I don’t think skills are comparable here. Amin may have been a very good boxer, but I’ll take the grappler in any match where the ground game is allowed.
This comes up all the time here; I have always found the arguments that size matters a LOT to be more convincing. That said, I was thinking this was a total maximum viciousness fight; MMA rules probably favor the smaller, weaker man to some degree.
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### Author:  [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)
#### Post date: [August 20, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/57 "2013-08-20T20:45:10Z")
[QUOTE=Tom Scud;16589106 MMA rules probably favor the smaller, weaker man to some degree.[/QUOTE]
How’s that? The big guy has an advantage in weight/ strength. The small guy can only have an advantage in skill/ speed. That takes lots of skill (and you see it in some Mirko Filipovic fights where he clobbers much larger opponents), but fighting dirty doesn’t favor either small or large. Both can eye gouge, kick groin, bite, break knees, choke/smash windpipe. In what scenario is the smaller guy spared or enabled by UFC rules.
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### Author:  [@Peanuthead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanuthead)
#### Post date: [August 21, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/58 "2013-08-21T23:32:43Z")
> [@pravnik](#):
>
> Chuck Liddell also offered to contribute a not insubstantial amount of his own dough for Mayweather to get into the ring. Mayweather either declined on the grounds that UFC couldn’t afford him or ducked, depending on who you ask. 🙂
Two UFC fighters walked into the ring. Mayweather ducked.
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### Author:  [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/59 "2013-08-22T00:00:36Z")
Assuming the book (Nicholas and Alexandra) is accurate, Nicholas’ father tsar Alexander III was Europe’s acknowledged strong man (figuratively and literally.) Well over 6 feet tall and heavy set; he can bend fire pokers in his arm and twist silverware into knots with his fingers. Once the royal train car got derailed and turned over with the family inside, he braced against the caved roof of the car and pushed it back up.
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### Author:  [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toughest-leaders-in-history/666595/60 "2013-08-22T03:33:30Z")
You dont believe that story, do you?
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