Toughest Sport to be an Elite Athlete

Great Debates
61

Sure, that’s not nearly as hard as you’d think.

Hitting it in such a way that you will reach base, however, is another matter entirely. With some practice you could certainly make contact quite a lot. But you’d mostly hit dinky ground balls and popups. Professional ballplayers have to do more than just hit the ball; they have to hit the ball in a way that it won’t be caught in the air or relayed to first before they run ninety feet. But now we’re well beyond just hitting the ball - now we’re talking about the effect of the efforts of other players.

Where MLB hitters differ from the average slob is that they’re generally swinging from the heels and they can still make contact AND can hit it extremely hard, and most of them run like hell, too, so you’d best not bobble that ground ball.

That’s hard to do, but how it is intrinsically harder than kicking a field goal? Kicking a ball is easy; kicking it 45 yards so it goes through the uprights, that’s tough. How is hitting a baseball harder than, as I suggested, executing a quadruple jump on ice skates? A quadruple jump is OBVIOUSLY harder, isn’t it? Maybe a dozen guys in the world can do that. Thousands can hit a 90-MPH fastball.

How do you think baseball players learn to hit baseballs? They aren’t born doing it.

Look, you’re simply wrong. Many, many, many people try figure skating and the number who have ever succesfully performed a quadruple jump is still very small. This isn’t a matter of opinion, it is absolute fact; there are fewer human beings in the history of the world who have ever done a quadruple jump in competition than there are guys who can hit major league fastballs in the National League East at this very moment. There are at least a thousand people today, maybe more, who can hit a major league fastball well enough to get a hit now and then. (There’s about 500 major league position players, but lots of minor leaguers can hit, plus the Japan League, guys who’ve recently retired, good college players, etc.) Remember that the distinction between major league hitters and AA hitters is very small in terms of the ability to make contact; the major league average is .265 or thereabouts, and most AA and AAA hitters could manage at least .200 or more.

Of course not. Do you really, honestly, truly believe you could learn to be a nationals-level figure skater just by practicing for eight years? That’s insane, dude. Many try, and few are chosen.

62

The pitcher’s mound dates back to the 19th century and to before the invention of the National League, I believe.

But to answer your question, yes. Many, many changes have taken place over the years; keeping clean balls in play in 1920 resulted in far more scoring, cheap baseballs without rubber cores in WWII drove scoring down. Redefining the strike zone in 1963 jacked up strikeouts and reduced scoring; lowering the pitcher’s mound in 1969 brought it back up a bit. The AL introduced the DH in 1973 to raise scoring more. And of course scoring goes up and down depending on changes in ballparks and such.

63

A quadruple jump isn’t comparable to hitting major league pitching, because figure skating isn’t a direct competition against other athletes. If you can execute a quadruple jump, you can do that; if you can’t, you can’t. What you do doesn’t depend on the performance of anyone else. Hitting live pitching is an entire series of encounters, and the only difference between one guy and the next is the frequency with which he can beat the pitcher. It’s like trying to compare baking a cake to boxing – you can’t make a meaningful comparison, I don’t think. You can’t say the jump is harder because fewer people can do it, because hitting isn’t black and white like that.

64

The toughest sports to excel in have to be the legion of second and third tier ones that have little money and exposure available for the athletes. I’m thinking of sports like swimming, triathlons, the field events of the olympic games, even cycling. These sports have sufficiently deep talent pools that mean you’re going to have to be a genetic freak to get to the elite level, but such little financial reward to spread around that you have to practically be in the top ten in the world before you can give up the day job. I think these sportspeople are real heros.

Cross-county mountain biking is a good example of a sport that would be brutal to become an elite athlete in. Anyone able to name any XC mountain bikers? Total invisible activity, yet you have to have unbelievable God-given talent to make it as a professional. Michael Rasmussen, third in the current tour de france until he bolloxed up the time trial, was a previous world champion, as was Floyd Landis (I think) another top ten finisher in this year’s tour. What’s the take home wage of the tenth best mountain biker in the world? Probably the same as a good plumber or electrician.

65

The only thing that annoys me more than smilies is line-by-line quoting, so in summary…

Wow. You make a far more compelling case than I thought possible. Excellent work, and it gives me new respect for hockey players. The Wild, Leafs, and Kings examples in particular.

I would still say significantly, and use your final comment as evidence. Why do think the NFL has injuries built into the roster, where the NHL does not? What difference could there possibly be that would make such a drastic difference in roster makeup?

It’s the plain and simple fact that injuries are much more frequent in the NFL. Your conclusion is that the NFL has slighly more injuries. Okay, now imagine that the NFL schedule were 80 games long, and the NHL season only 16. How would the off-season injury lists compare then, do you think?

66

I would say one reason why the NFL has a larger roster is that it needs 2 as many players on the field at once, 11-6 for the NFL. Plus in the the NHL one of those 6 is on for basically the whole game, so its really more like 11-5. Due to this the rosters are 2x the size. Plus the NFL has way more money then the NHL and can more easily afford larger rosters. I am willing to accede that players get hurt more in the NFL then they do in the NHL, however I am not convinced that that makes the NFL the more violent league. How often do boxers get hurt (in that they have to stop playing there sport for a while, I know the whole goal is to hurt the other guy in boxing). Personally I have no idea, yet you say you think that it is more brutal.

I have heard it said that playing a game of NFL football is like getting hit by a mack truck, while obviously hyperbole, I get the point. I would say hockey is like getting hit by a pick up truck where the bed is full of guys with sticks smacking you around. You are probably going to suffer more injuries by the mack truck, but the guys with sticks make up for the size of their pick up. In a pain context, I think both NFL and NHL players suffer equally. Honestly, if you don’t watch Hockey give it a try, its a beautiful sport that still satisfies my blood lust :). Plus it gives you something to watch when it isn’t sunday.

67

There’s really very little difference in roster makeup, actually. The NHL carries 4 offensive lines and 3 defensive lines, which is similar to the NFL’s roster of first team, second team, and special teams. The only position that is hoped will never take the field/ice is backup QB/goalie, and that’s where the similarity becomes obvious.

Your money comment is probably unrelated to the discussion. NHL players used to be much – and likely still will be somewhat – more highly paid than NFL athletes. But what about the CFL? They don’t have the money of the NHL, and yet have similar rosters as the NFL.

“More violent” is almost entirely subjective, so it’s mostly a moot point. Still, I think a 16 game season in the NHL would yield very, very few injuries, and an 80 game schedule in the NFL would yield not one single player being able to play them all, out of the 1700 players on the active rosters in the league.

I try. Believe me, I try. I’ve been trying to become a hockey fan for almost a decade now. My problems are many. The worst one is that I’m a Rangers fan. Do you have any idea how difficult that is to be? Second, I dislike following a team and missing action. I’ve seen every play of the Giants since the early nineties…I just don’t have the time or patience to watch 80 Rangers games every year. Nor could I justify it if I did. (At least I could avoid playoff games, as I’ve not seen the Rangers play one since I started trying to follow them.)

I agree that hockey is a beautiful game, and has some fantastic speed and phenomenal hits. The problem I have is that I get bored. How many fantastic plays/big hits per game? (Rangers games, remember.) Fighting annoys me to no end, and screams “we are bush league” to me. And finally, hockey, basketball and soccer annoy me on general principle because there really is no building up an attack through incremental progress, which is possibly my very favorite aspect of sport.

Anyway, having said all that, I am almost as jacked about the Rangers this year as I am the Giants. In fact, I’m more excited about the Rangers than I am the Jets. That is a truly remarkable first for me.

LET’S GO, RAN-GERS!!!

68

One thing that occured to me when I hit submit is recovery time. Boxers need months between fights to recover from the violence. Football players need a week. Hockey players? A day or two. (Which is why hockey playoffs drag on for such a ridiculously long time.)

69

A vote for cycling. The NY Times had an interesting article on the physiology of Lance Armstrong the other day. From the article:

71

Well I am glad we agree on 1 thing. As well you are right, there is no way any football player would survive an 80 game schedule. However I do think they could play a little more often. Every CFL team has to play at least 2 games in 10 days at one point in their schedule, and the Toronto Argos are about to play 2 games in 4 days! Its crazy.

How many big plays/hits are there in a game of football? Not that many either. However since you like the incremental progress aspect of football, and the fact a play only happens every 40 seconds or so (well I am assumming that) I can se ehow Hockey can bore you. I am sure you are the kind of guy who enjoys watching WRs block (a part of teh sport a lot of people don’t value), you just need to educate yourself on what makes a hockey play great.

Off topic sort of: I pity the Rangers fan, however I am a leaf fan, so it isn’t much better. And your Giants don’t have a chance, the Eagles easily win that division again (Leafs/Eagles fan here)

72

I’m going to have to beat the tennis drum yet again.

Is it more difficult to hit a pro curve ball than a pro slice serve…probably. But I will piggy back on the earlier statements about “hitting” not being indicative of the 3-in-10 statement. there are some at-bats where a batter will hit the all as many as 4-5 times, even against Roger Clemens (fouls, etc.). contact is not the issue.

If we add all-game context, it has to be tennis. All apologies to QB-advocates (I was one in HS), but it’s not the same. Getting hit…yeah, it distracts, but I could counter with conditioning (if you remove Mike Vick). A pro tennis player has every bit the strategic needs of a QB, and has to worry about the ball coming ack at him.

In regards to your control: baseball vs. tennis serve. Respectfuly…no. I’m a good tennis player (not nearly pro-level), and I can do things on my serve that Rocket Roger would give an eyeball to be able to do with a baseball.

Soccer…very tough. Tennis…tougher. Motor"sports"…yuk-yuk.

-Cem

73

You’re right. Not the boards, but other players. I would rather have 260+ pound football player slam me down to the turf instead of a 200 pound hockey player open ice check me at full speed and THEN let gravity take me to the icey concrete. Ask Paul Kariya when Scott Stevens laid him out. (1:11 into the video) You are forgetting that hits in hockey generally come at a higher rate of speed than a football hit, especially open ice hits. And I would think that the force imparted in hockey is greater than in football, assuming full contact at full speed for each sport.

Another notion…would Marty McSorely fare better in football than Lawrance Taylor would in hockey? I know, that seems like an unfair question since hockey requires extensions to player’s feet and hands and to master the skills using skates and sticks, which would put the sport of hockey that much harder to master, compared to football…although the QB position does stand out requiring quite a bit of brains to master as a specialist position.

74

Believe it or not, motocross is considered either the most or second most (depending on which study, I’ve heard both) physically demanding sport.

75

Cite? I’m calling bullshit on this. There is no way motocross is more physically demanding than swimming, boxing, or soccer (in addition to a number of other sports).

I still think soccer is number one, followed closely by boxing. Boxers (and wrestlers and other fighters) are in the best shape of any athletes, and boxing is more physically demanding than just about any other sport. The only drawback is that the talent pool isn’t particularly deep.

Soccer is also very physically demanding. It’s 90-minutes of intense activity with only one break. Tennis, hockey, and football all have long periods of downtime. Most importantly, the pool of talent is really deep. People play soccer in almost every country, unlike many other sports. To be an elite soccer player, you have to play in multiple leagues, and on multiple teams. The teams are constantly changing, and there is always someone there trying to take your spot. There is no sport that can match soccer in terms of the physical demands and the competition.

76

Well, there were (and may be again) Thursday night games in the NFL, but the coaches all whined like such little bitches that the NFL now confines the Thursday game to the season opener only. But point taken…it wasn’t a very strong argument.

I am duly chastised. With football, I can easily find something of interest if I focus on any one player on any one play, and be able to appreciate the effort, skill and strategy required to do what they are doing. I consistantly give short shrift to other sports that likely have depth that I am simply unaware of.

It’s agony. I do hope you join the boards; you can debate, and there aren’t nearly enough NFL fans around here, IMO.

I am completely unable to refute that argument, except to say that I don’t think it’s unfair at all; it’s actually quite on-point for the debate. However:

I completely disagree. Getting slammed into a wall at a high speed and then falling to the ice isn’t as big an impact as get slammed onto the ground at medium speed with a hulking mass of muscle on top of you driving you into the ground.

Make a fist and smack a desktop at a pretty fast clip with the heel of the fist. Hurts, right? Now strap a 25 pound weight to the top of your fist and let it fall onto the same desk. “Hurts” will likely be an understatement; medical intervention may be necessary.

77

How about football, that is, what we call “soccer”?

My reasoning is thus:

How hard is it to become an elite athlete when this is the most popular sport in the world? The shear number of players around the world is staggering.

78

There is more to motocross than you realize.
http://www.impactracing.com/whatsmx.html
“While it may look simple to the onlooker, motocross competitors are athletes in the strictest sense of the word. A recent study conducted by the National Athletic Health Institute in California, in cooperation with Cycle Magazine, proved the amazing fitness and endurance that each of these young racers possess. Results of a series of fitness tests to 9 top motocrossers showed conclusively that these riders were the most physically fit athletes ever tested by the Institute”

"The study conducted by the NAHI included routine tests such as EKGs, blood samples, blood pressure checks, etc. Once these were completed, it was on to the more serious stuff. Heading the list was the treadmill test. By far and away the most strenuous on the list, this test provided the most data about each rider’s general physical condition. Upper body strength was determined by a series of shoulder presses, bench presses and curling exercises. Leg strength was also measured in a number of ways. In addition, body flexibility, hand strength and situps were included. Finally, underwater weighing ascertained the amount of weight that was body fat and a skin-fold caliper test revealed the distribution of fat on the body.

The normal time on the treadmill for someone 21 or 22 years old is about 10 to 12 minutes. Tested motocross racers achieved times such as 17 minutes, 24 seconds."
A study in the 70’s ranked it 2nd behind soccer.

79

I can’t even find a link for the NAHI. Unless you have a link to the study, I still think it’s garbage. Any study that draws such conclusions by testing 9 people extremely dubious. I also doubt many top pro atheltes in the major sports would volunteer to be tested by this place.

80

I have a theory most people here have chosen their “pet” sports for the most difficult. That said, I’m going to vote for my pet sport.

I’m not going to consider “toughest” being “hardest to get into”, because I’m not up on that statistics of every sport in the world.

Anyway, I pick Women’s Artistic Gymnastics.
[ul]
[li] Very little money to be made[/li][li] Have to train 25-30+ hours per week, 48+ weeks of the year from when you’re about 6 years old[/li][li] Relatively short competition life span[/li][li] Pain - a big one. Elite gymnasts are in significant pain for around 2 hours every day of training[/li][li] Injuries. Huge amounts. [/li][li] Fear. Huge fear factor, not shared by many sports[/li][li] Hit and miss. One millimetre off balance, once, can ruin your career. [/li][li] Extreme strength, flexibility and power[/li][li] Absence of “a life”[/li][/ul]

81

I think you are jumping to conclusions without having information about this place.

Testing Excercise Performance of Professional Football Players at the NAHI
From the American Journal of Sports Medicine

“…Over a 4-year period 167 football players were examined at the National Athletic Health Institute, Inglewood, California, and grouped according to playing position and class. Position groups were: 1, linemen; 2, linebackers and tight ends; 3, running backs, quarterbacks and kickers; and 4, wide receivers and defensive backs. Classes were: I, rookies (nonstarters); II, veterans (nonstarters); and III, starters (veterans and an occasional rookie). …”

The team physician for the Chicago Bears and the Chicago Blackhawks did his fellowship at this institute
http://www.ibji.com/physicians/nubermd.htm
Florida Gators head team physician, fellowship at NAHI
http://www.gatorzone.com/health/?p=indelicato
The head of Texas A&M Dept of Health and Kinesiology was an executive at the institute
http://www.ithaca.edu/icnews/vol22/22-06/hlthfit.htm
In this document, then Vice President Gerald Ford resigns from the National Athletic Health Institute
http://www.ford.utexas.edu/library/guides/Finding%20Aids/Ford,%20Gerald%20-%20Vice-Presidential%20Papers.htm
In this document, a Disney educational video shows athletes being tested at the National Athletic Health Institute
http://www.lcsd.logan.k12.ut.us/vidlib/m.html

  1. Clearly the National Athletic Health Institute has indeed tested top professional athletes in at least 2 sports (in football and motocross). And based on the information I see on google and cited above, there is no reason to think that is the limit of their testing.

  2. Testing 9 of the top motocross riders and stating that they were in better overall shape than any other athletes tested does not prove anything. But when you combine that small study with a study from the 70’s that is often referenced on sports med pages placing motocross 2nd behind soccer, along with personal accounts of multi-sport athletes indicating that motocross was more physically demanding than the other sports they engaged in (rowing, running, swimming, etc.), then you begin to get enough data to consider motocross as one of the most physically demanding sports. It’s not a proof, but it’s pretty hard to ignore that information.

  3. I couldn’t care less which sport is most physically demanding. My favorite sport to watch is football, I play softball, I haven’t ridden motorcycles since I was 15 and I haven’t watched motocross for more than a couple minutes while changing channels. I was surprised when I first heard this too.