# Tourist-spot crash in upstate New York kills 18 in wedding-party limo and 2 bystanders **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 7, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623 "2018-10-07T20:43:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/1 "2018-10-07T20:43:29Z")
> [@](#): > > A limousine blew a stop sign at the end of a highway and plowed into a parked unoccupied SUV, killing all 18 people in the limo and two pedestrians in the deadliest transportation accident in the United States in almost a decade, officials said Sunday. > > The collision turned a relaxed Saturday afternoon into chaos at an upstate New York spot popular with tourists taking in the fall foliage, with witnesses reporting bodies on the ground and broken tree limbs everywhere. > > The 2001 Ford Excursion limousine was traveling southwest on state Route 30 in Schoharie, about 170 miles north of New York City, around 2 p.m. when it failed to stop at a T-junction with state Route 30A, State Police First Deputy Supt. Christopher Fiore said at a news conference in Latham, N.Y. > **[Tourist-spot crash in upstate New York kills 18 in limo and 2 bystanders](https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-new-york-limousine-crash-20181007-story.html)** > > A limousine loaded with revelers headed to a 30th birthday party blew a stop sign at the end of a highway and plowed into a parked, unoccupied SUV, killing all 18 people in the limo and two pedestrians in the deadliest transportation accident in the... This limo was not built this large in the factory–instead it was extended. One wonders if this was a factor in the large number of deaths. Another factor: > [@](#): > > The store sits at the intersection of Route 30 and 30A, at the bottom of a steep hill. The speed limit in Route 30 headed south is 50 mph. There’s no indication there’s a stop sign until about 200 feet from the bottom. The southbound lane is covered in skid marks from cars having to stop suddenly. [https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/20-killed-in-Schoharie-limousine-crash-13288015.php](https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/20-killed-in-Schoharie-limousine-crash-13288015.php) ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/2 "2018-10-07T21:05:29Z")
Looking at on street view, it appears that it’s only a dangerous intersection because idiots are allowed to drive. First you have to ignore [one of these signs](https://images.roadtrafficsigns.com/img/lg/X/stop-ahead-sign-x-w3-1.png) before barrelling through a large, red, eight-sided sign that says STOP at the intersection. Unless you’re texting or watching Spongebob on your phone, it shouldn’t be a problem. Also on street view, there aren’t skid marks all over the south bound lane. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/3 "2018-10-08T01:56:24Z")
I’ve been through the 30/30A intersection a few times in different directions. It’s easy to be caught off guard coming down that hill, even in a passenger car with good brakes and a shorter stopping distance. Speed can creep up on you. The road design is a factor, but I suspect the real problem will be that it was an after-market stretched Ford Excursion. I wouldn’t be surprised if an investigation indicated that the brakes were still stock and not rated for that kind of weight, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/4 "2018-10-08T02:00:34Z")
Birtyhday, not wedding, was my understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/5 "2018-10-08T02:06:00Z")
The article says the limo hit a vehicle in the parking lot of the country store. So not only did the driver miss the stop sign, he left the road and would have had to swerve left somewhat. I wonder if the driver might have been impaired. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/6 "2018-10-08T03:28:45Z")
I read that only the driver was wearing a seatbelt. A witness said the limo was going around 60 coming down that hill. This was a very close-knit group of 30-something family and friends. And yes, it was the birthday of one of the women. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/7 "2018-10-08T04:32:15Z")
Someone on another board who says they live in that town said that the restaurant refused to close, even when law enforcement recommended that they do so. :eek: My guess is that the driver had some kind of medical incident (i.e. stroke or heart attack) and that’s why he lost control of the vehicle. The autopsy will definitely look for this. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/8 "2018-10-08T16:43:54Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I read that only the driver was wearing a seatbelt. A witness said the limo was going around 60 coming down that hill. I’m not surprised. A limo like that usually doesn’t even have seat belts in the back. They are not required by law for buses or limos with a passenger capacity of 10 or more. It probably had what is called “perimeter seating” so almost all the passengers were sitting sideways to the direction of travel. In such cases, seat belts are probably of limited use anyway. Limos like that are basically death traps, for a variety of reasons. In most states except California, they aren’t even required to have doors, windows, or other exits that that can be opened from the inside in case of emergency. The California law was passed only in response to a horrific limo fire in 2013 that killed five women trapped inside. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/9 "2018-10-08T16:49:57Z")
If they were on a wine tour, I would be wondering how many wineries they had already been to, and I would definitely check on the driver’s blood alcohol content. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/10 "2018-10-08T16:58:03Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I read that only the driver was wearing a seatbelt. A witness said the limo was going around 60 coming down that hill. That would be my guess to account for the huge number of fatalities. I dread to think of what would be happening in even a low speed collision with 18 unsecured passengers flying around. Expect regulations on seat belts to come in very rapidly (and an eternal battle to get people in limos to wear them) ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/11 "2018-10-08T19:02:57Z")
The limo had [failed an inspection](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/limo-involved-fatal-crash-never-should-have-been-road-new-n917826)and wasn’t supposed to be in use. Also, the driver did not have the necessary license. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/12 "2018-10-08T20:07:56Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Someone on another board who says they live in that town said that the restaurant refused to close, even when law enforcement recommended that they do so. :eek: I recall reading about the incident that the restaurant management announced they’d be open and “the restaurant could use a hug”. The article I read also was headlined as a wedding party in the limo, but the text of the article barely made it clear that it was a group celebrating a birthday for one woman and two of the group were newlyweds. The article also mentioned that stretch limos which are “stretched” after purchase usually do not have side airbags in the added part of the limo. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/13 "2018-10-08T20:26:49Z")
I’m interested to know why the vehicle failed inspection. I have access to it but probably shouldn’t look as a mere curious party. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/14 "2018-10-08T20:29:46Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I’m interested to know why the vehicle failed inspection. I have access to it but probably shouldn’t look as a mere curious party. From the previous article: > [@](#): > > Cuomo said the limousine was a “chopped vehicle,” meaning it had been cut and elongated and needed federal certification that it had been extended in a way that is compliant with the law, which it did not have. So it is possible that just the lack of federal certification is the reason it failed inspection. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/15 "2018-10-08T20:34:22Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > From the previous article: > So it is possible that just the lack of federal certification is the reason it failed inspection. I saw that and thought it was a different issue from the failed inspection. I assumed they were referring to a failed roadside inspection. This could be what he meant, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/16 "2018-10-08T20:42:10Z")
This is what I assumed they were referring to: “US Department of Transportation records show Prestige Limousine Chauffeur Service has two drivers and three vehicles. Its vehicles were inspected five times in the last two years, and the company has had four vehicles taken out of service.” I figured it had been placed out of service during one of those. That’s a pretty high OOS rate for a limo company. > **[The limo that crashed and killed 20 people failed inspection. And the driver...](https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/08/us/new-york-limo-crash/index.html)** > > A total of 20 people died in the crash, including the 17 limo passengers, the limo's driver and two pedestrians. ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/17 "2018-10-08T22:02:28Z")
One of the partiers texted a friend that the limo was in awful shape and the motor noise was deafening. I’m wondering if the driver and some/all of the passengers were dead of carbon monoxide even before the crash. The loud sound could have been a faulty exhaust(?) I find it amazing that no one survived (the one person alive at the scene was DOA at hospital). Is CO2 measurable in an autopsy? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/18 "2018-10-08T22:16:16Z")
I think you mean is CO (carbon monoxide) measurable, and I think, based on years of watching police procedurals, the answer is yes. ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/19 "2018-10-08T22:17:24Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I think you mean is CO (carbon monoxide) measurable, and I think, based on years of watching police procedurals, the answer is yes. Whoops, yes: CO ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/20 "2018-10-08T22:23:30Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I think you mean is CO (carbon monoxide) measurable, and I think, based on years of watching police procedurals, the answer is yes. And isn’t the body bright pink? They’d know it was likely just from a visual inspection. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623.md?page=2)