# Tourist-spot crash in upstate New York kills 18 in wedding-party limo and 2 bystanders **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 7, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623 "2018-10-07T20:43:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/61 "2018-10-10T11:36:09Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Specifically, the owner was a DMV clerk convicted of taking bribes to let people cheat on driving tests (and he became an FBI informant to avoid being deported to Pakistan). I’m guessing that compliance was not a high priority at his limo company, and I almost wonder if he was hiring some of his old clients as drivers. Pakistan may start to look pretty good in hindsight. He ran to the US to avoid a murder charge so I guess not. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/62 "2018-10-10T12:40:25Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Looking at Google Earth, and who knows if those elevations are right, the distance along NY 30 from I-88 to the intersection is about 1.67 miles. The elevation drop along that distance is 546 feet. (1165 feet-ish at the interstate, 620 at the T-intersection) That averages to a 6.2% grade, which is considerable. Looking at the last third of a mile, the grade looks to be about 6.6%. It didn’t look that steep in videos near the crash site, but that’s not unusual. > > That’s more than enough of a grade that IME, there would have been warning signs about it, and as a former passenger driver with a CDL, it’d really give me pause about going too fast in a limo. Regardless of how behind schedule my passengers were. Especially considering the maintenance or lack thereof on that vehicle. Given the reported lack of maintenance, it wouldn’t surprise me if the brakes had never been bled (i.e. plenty of moisture in the brake fluid). And if they had never been upgraded from factory, then they probably got smoking hot from trying to keep the speed under control during that descent with all that weight. Wouldn’t surprise me to learn that the brakes simply boiled, leaving the driver with no braking authority whatsoever. That would explain the lack of skid marks on the pavement, and the high speed of the final impact. Even without boiling the brakes, high temps could have resulted in severe brake fade (i.e high temps on the rotors and pads dangerously lowers the friction coefficient, reducing braking authority). Since the driver reportedly was not licensed to operate that limo, he may not have had the training needed to manage braking. AIUI, this is part of the training for getting a CDL, i.e. knowing that brakes on heavy vehicles have limited capacity, so when it comes to descending significant grades (like the one you described), speeds should be kept low and engine braking should be used. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/63 "2018-10-10T13:26:55Z")
What are the chances of getting the limo company owner back into the country to face charges? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/64 "2018-10-10T14:01:22Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > What are the chances of getting the limo company owner back into the country to face charges? The US does have an extradition treaty with Pakistan, so if criminal charges arise from this mess, I expect we could get him brought to the US to face trial. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/65 "2018-10-10T14:15:20Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Looking at Google Earth, and who knows if those elevations are right, the distance along NY 30 from I-88 to the intersection is about 1.67 miles. The elevation drop along that distance is 546 feet. (1165 feet-ish at the interstate, 620 at the T-intersection) That averages to a 6.2% grade, which is considerable. Looking at the last third of a mile, the grade looks to be about 6.6%. It didn’t look that steep in videos near the crash site, but that’s not unusual. > > That’s more than enough of a grade that IME, there would have been warning signs about it, and as a former passenger driver with a CDL, it’d really give me pause about going too fast in a limo. Regardless of how behind schedule my passengers were. Especially considering the maintenance or lack thereof on that vehicle. > > I’ve ridden with guys I was working with who would think nothing of it though. There are _three_ steep grade warning signs at the top of the hill. The third one even has two white flags on top for extra emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/66 "2018-10-10T14:40:53Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > There are _three_ steep grade warning signs at the top of the hill. The third one even has two white flags on top for extra emphasis. Maybe the driver gave up. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/67 "2018-10-10T15:27:14Z")
It might be a good idea to lower the speed limit on this road segment. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/68 "2018-10-10T15:28:45Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The US does have an extradition treaty with Pakistan, so if criminal charges arise from this mess, I expect we could get him brought to the US to face trial. Chances of a Court: 1. Letting a muslim man go to Trumps America to face charges & 2. While he has a murder charge pending back home. Are only slightly above zero point nada. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/69 "2018-10-10T16:46:54Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > It might be a good idea to lower the speed limit on this road segment. Because of a single poorly maintained limo that was not certified for street duty, operated by an unlicensed driver? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/70 "2018-10-10T16:52:29Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Maybe the driver gave up. I’m probably going to hell for this, but this is what your post reminds me of. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/hWORVTX9mnU/hqdefault.jpg "Strange Brew 1983 "no point in steering Now"") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWORVTX9mnU) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/71 "2018-10-10T17:14:06Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Because of a single poorly maintained limo that was not certified for street duty, operated by an unlicensed driver? :dubious: No: because of skidmarks on the highway from previous near misses, because the owner of the Apple store had remember 2 or 3 semis coming into his parking lot because they also failed to stop at the stop sign, because of the reputation among the public of it being a bad intersection. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/72 "2018-10-10T17:35:55Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Chances of a Court: > > 1. Letting a muslim man go to Trumps America to face charges > & > 2. While he has a murder charge pending back home. > > Are only slightly above zero point nada. The owner, the Pakistani national, he is facing an existing charge of murder in the Pakistan? And he went back to the country? Can you be more clear, it is not clear in my reading. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/73 "2018-10-10T17:53:32Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > The owner, the Pakistani national, he is facing an existing charge of murder in the Pakistan? And he went back to the country? Can you be more clear, it is not clear in my reading. He was implicated as an accessory to a murder case back in 1994. He ran away to the US and avoided extradition. Not sure what happened to the case against him, but he could be tried even if the primary has been convicted and hanged. He seems to have decided to take his chances with the charge anyway. Probably for the best from his point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/74 "2018-10-10T18:03:39Z")
They just announced he’s in custody. Details to follow, maybe, after hurricane news. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/75 "2018-10-10T18:09:47Z")
I think it’s the son of the limo company owner who is in custody. From The New York Times, “Nauman Hussain, the son of a Shahed Hussain, the owner of Prestige Limousine, was taken into custody by the State Police during a traffic stop on a highway in the Albany area.” The father is the one in Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/76 "2018-10-10T18:29:56Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Looking at on street view, it appears that it’s only a dangerous intersection because idiots are allowed to drive. First you have to ignore [one of these signs](https://images.roadtrafficsigns.com/img/lg/X/stop-ahead-sign-x-w3-1.png) before barrelling through a large, red, eight-sided sign that says STOP at the intersection. Unless you’re texting or watching Spongebob on your phone, it shouldn’t be a problem. Also on street view, there aren’t skid marks all over the south bound lane. > [@asterion](#): > > I’ve been through the 30/30A intersection a few times in different directions. It’s easy to be caught off guard coming down that hill, even in a passenger car with good brakes and a shorter stopping distance. Speed can creep up on you. [This article](https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2018/10/09/intersection-where-limo-crash-too-dangerous/1569062002/) provides some insight: > [@](#): > > Efforts to fix the troubled intersection have been made in the past, according to Schoharie Town Supervisor Alan Tavenner. > > “There were some modifications 10 or 12 years ago to make it more direct, a T. It was a Y intersection before,” Tavenner said. > > Modifications were done by the State Department of Transportation since they are state roads. > > “There were problems with tractor-trailers losing their brakes on that hill,” Tavenner said. > > As a result, about four years ago, tractor-trailers were banned from using that route and detoured elsewhere. I’m guessing there’d be a bunch of skid marks if trucks were still allowed to go down that hill. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/77 "2018-10-10T19:03:59Z")
> [@](#): > > **According to federal inspection documents posted on the U.S. Department of Transportation website** , the fateful limo was cited for 14 violations 32 days prior to the crash… > > Some of the violations listed on the inspection report of September 4, 2018, have nothing to do with the roadworthiness of the vehicle. For example, the name of the operator needs to be on display and the government certification number also needs to be in plain view. The report says they weren’t. > > It also says the limo had been carrying more passengers then the manufacturers engineered it to carry. > > In addition, the brake malfunction indicator light on the dashboard wasn’t working properly, the windshield wipers were defective and deficiencies uncovered during previous inspections had been ignored. [https://wnyt.com/news/limousine-crash-inspection-records-schoharie/5102103/](https://wnyt.com/news/limousine-crash-inspection-records-schoharie/5102103/) Anyone good at Google? I would like to read those federal inspection documents. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/78 "2018-10-11T01:57:03Z")
I’m a little puzzled and shocked that all 18 in the limo died. Even with nearly all of them unbelted, there’s usually a few survivors in accidents like this—people that didn’t get thrown out, or who impacted objects that slowed their deceleration. What was the nature of the crash? Did the limo roll? Was their fire? ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/79 "2018-10-11T10:31:03Z")
> [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > I’m a little puzzled and shocked that all 18 in the limo died. Even with nearly all of them unbelted, there’s usually a few survivors in accidents like this—people that didn’t get thrown out, or who impacted objects that slowed their deceleration. What was the nature of the crash? Did the limo roll? Was their fire? ‘There’, not ‘their’. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623/80 "2018-10-11T12:30:48Z")
> [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > I’m a little puzzled and shocked that all 18 in the limo died. Even with nearly all of them unbelted, there’s usually a few survivors in accidents like this—people that didn’t get thrown out, or who impacted objects that slowed their deceleration. What was the nature of the crash? Did the limo roll? Was their fire? AIUI, the limo pretty much went head-on into a tree. No fire, no rollover. The impact was hard enough to drive the engine through the firewall into the front-seat area. Basically the whole chassis came to a dead stop, and then all the passengers slammed into the forward bulkhead at 60 MPH. Impacting at that speed is like falling from a height of 118 feet, i.e. jumping out of an 11th-floor window. A few of them did survive the initial impact, but subsequently died at (or enroute to) the hospital. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tourist-spot-crash-in-upstate-new-york-kills-18-in-wedding-party-limo-and-2-bystanders/822623.md?page=5)