# toward being a free man on the land **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826 "2013-06-24T21:31:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/181 "2013-06-25T12:38:45Z")
Based on his writings, I’m going to operate on the assumption that the OP is not going to contribute any information of value, but I _am_ curious about the exact distinction (if any) between a “law” and a “statute”, in theory or practice, and invite edification from others. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/182 "2013-06-25T13:11:13Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > The new health care and abortion options are a good example I don’t want to be contracted with that kind of legislation and I want out. What say you? I’ll let the lawyers discuss your outage, but want to ask about your concerns of “health care and abortion.” Are your sources implying that you will be a victim of mandatory abortion? If not, I presume your objection is financial rather than moral, since an abortion-hating God would want you to remain in society to fight sin. Americans(\*) have been victimized by large-scale Wall St. fraud, stupid foreign adventures, an electorate made stupid by right-wing propaganda, and reality TV shows. To focus your hatred on the financial cost to you of others’ abortions does seem peculiar. (\* - OP didn’t explicitly say he was American. Are there other countries with “free men” similarly seeking outage?) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/183 "2013-06-25T13:21:23Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > (\* - OP didn’t explicitly say he was American. Are there other countries with “free men” similarly seeking outage?) Yes; from [Rationalwiki](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land#History): > [@](#): > > The freeman movement itself appears to have originated in Canada with “Mary Elizabeth: Croft” (sic) and her 2005 book How I clobbered every bureaucratic cash-confiscatory agency known to man … a Spiritual Economics Book on $$$ and Remembering Who You Are. This evolved into a Canadian movement, with advocates such as Robert Menard — who appears to have actually coined the phrase “Freeman on the land,” with the phrase achieving currency some time around mid-2008. > > It then crossed over to the UK with organisations such as the British Constitution Group and people such as John Harris, Brian Gerrish, the Anti-terrorist, Raymond St Clair and Dominic Lohan. Freeman arguments came to UK public attention when they tried recruiting amongst the more anarchist-leaning protesters at the Occupy London protests in late 2011, and even got two articles in the Guardian. These were promptly slapped down by actual lawyers who detailed how this was dangerous idiocy that would send you directly to jail. Freeman ideas are now an object of amusement for the British legal profession. > > Freemen have also shown up in Ireland, causing similar concern amongst the legal profession there and a similar lack of success in practice. Underlining mine. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/184 "2013-06-25T13:21:39Z")
I am beginning to believe that the whole “Free Man” movement is being orchestrated by the Terrorists. They know that the greatest strength of America is our Unity, and therefore are trying to fractionalize and ultimately Balkanize our Great Country into a series of fueding fiefdoms, with “Individuals” unwilling to do anything for their neighbours without an explicit written contract. In red ink, and signed at an angle. Divide and conquer, turn neighbors against neighbors, and they will have free rein to impose their Laws upon us, while the concerned citizens have been led into petty bickering over fringes on a flag and definitions from Legal Dictionaries. Stand United against the Splitters! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/185 "2013-06-25T13:23:44Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Stand United against the Splitters! Are you a member of Americans United Against Splitters, or the American Anti-Splitting Movement? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/186 "2013-06-25T13:50:01Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Are you a member of Americans United Against Splitters, or the American Anti-Splitting Movement? Mock as you may, but is it really a coincidence that we first heard of these “Free Men” or “Soveriegn Citizens” only \*after \*9/11? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/187 "2013-06-25T13:56:09Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Mock as you may, but is it really a coincidence that we first heard of these “Free Men” or “Soveriegn Citizens” only \*after \*9/11? [RationalWiki](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land) > [@](#): > > The “Freeman on the Land” movement **inherited various indefensible legal concepts from the older tax protester and sovereign citizen movements in the US such as Posse Comitatus in the 1970s and 1980s** , the redemption movement in the 1980s and 1990s and the Montana Freemen in the 1990s. Freeman concepts of admiralty law and common law, their obsession with capitalisation of words and various theories on finance can be traced back to almost identical theories from these earlier movements. > > The freeman movement itself appears to have originated in Canada with “Mary Elizabeth: Croft” and **her 2005 book** How I clobbered every bureaucratic cash-confiscatory agency known to man … a Spiritual Economics Book on $$$ and Remembering Who You Are[6].\*\* This evolved into a Canadian movement, with advocates such as Robert Menard — who appears to have actually coined the phrase “Freeman on the land,” with the phrase achieving currency some time around mid-2008\*\* ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/188 "2013-06-25T14:02:35Z")
There you go! The Terrorists are trying to co-opt American ideas for their own purposes! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/189 "2013-06-25T14:09:04Z")
One of my favorites quotations for dealing with freemen and other spear-carriers of the Tinfoil-Hat Brigade: “Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest.” _Coleman v. CIR_ (7th Cir. 1986), 791 F.2d 68, 69. ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/190 "2013-06-25T14:13:45Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > thats an assumption mate erroneous at that. > Contractual law is what its all about. You haven’t been keeping up. I’ve had a professional reason to deal with a freeman on the land recently, and I spent way too much time trying to understand the authority behind his beliefs. Frankly, I couldn’t keep up. Could you explain to me why “Contractual law is what its all about?” Unfortunately for the freeman, he stopped paying the mortgage on his property. He might still be a freeman, but he has no land. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/191 "2013-06-25T14:22:45Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > okay okay member of the bar… > so when you saw me drawing distinction between law and statute why didn’t you raise a word I did; I pointed out that statutes are a form of law. Post #84. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > Do you believe we as a nation are a bankrupt corporation? No, because we are neither bankrupt nor a corporation. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > Do you believe our statutes are a result of our president “Commander in Chief” using his war powers to eavesdrop on your facebook and fly drones in the states against civilians. No, I believe our statutes are acts of Congress or state legislatures. You are thinking perhaps of executive orders. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > Let’s not tippy toe anymore. Your goverment will fire on you with their assault rifles. It’s happening everyday mate. Are you not gonna stand up? It’s all good till the stormtroopers foot is on your neck I’ve heard that before, but it all does not seem one inch closer than it was in Randy Weaver’s or David Koresh’s day, not here, not in Canada, not in Europe, etc. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/192 "2013-06-25T14:24:20Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So here would be my question for you. Haven’t you entered a contract with the United States and your own state when you left you house and: > Used a public road? > Benefited from police patrols and traffic signals to make your drive safe? > Driven while using a government issued driver’s license? > > Also: > Did you ever attend public school in the United States? > Benefit from any decision made by Congress, your state legislature, or local (city/county) government? > > In other words, why do you feel that contractually you get to benefit from living in the United States and yet do not have to reciprocate by obeying their laws? Are you willing to literally never leave you house (assume for a second that your not benefiting for government enforcement of contract law there) and enter into the US and give up fire/police protection of yourself, your property and your home? The gasoline taxes pay for the roads, if I consume the product and pay the taxes I have the benefit of the roads fair exchange right? I am a willing participant for the common good. right? Do you really think your federal taxes go to goods and services. Look it up your taxes don’t even come close to servicing the debt on the money borrowed from the federal reserve. silly goose. And yes I did go to public schools but they were a state run agency then the federal government did not legislate curruculum. LOl I am in an unincorporated district our fire protection is a voluntary organization. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/193 "2013-06-25T14:24:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > and no, they probably _aren’t_ going to shoot me with their assault rifles any time soon. I have to say, \*\*DT \*\*- you’ve been making a lot of progress lately. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/194 "2013-06-25T14:28:03Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > joinder means just that that’s the exact thing i said bringing two parties together. No, sir, [“joinder”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joinder) means bringing two or more **issues** together to be heard in one hearing or trial. If there is no case at bar, the term means nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/195 "2013-06-25T14:29:51Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > The gasoline taxes pay for the roads, if I consume the product and pay the taxes > I have the benefit of the roads fair exchange right? I am a willing participant for the common good. right? > > Do you really think your federal taxes go to goods and services. Look it up your taxes don’t even come close to servicing the debt on the money borrowed from the federal reserve. silly goose. > And yes I did go to public schools but they were a state run agency then the federal government did not legislate curruculum. LOl I am in an unincorporated district our fire protection is a voluntary organization. 1. The gas tax doesn’t raise enough to pay for the roads by itself. 2. What is the difference between “statute” and "law’? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/196 "2013-06-25T14:37:15Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > The gasoline taxes pay for the roads, if I consume the product and pay the taxes You paid for that with what now? US Dollars? The ones backed by the US government? The ones whose value is derived from not just Americans faith in the stability of their currency and government but from the faith of most people around the world in its stability and that of its government? Then you, sir, have implicitly benefited from our society through the use of our currency, which is backed by the same government over which you scoff. Yet you proudly admit you wish to take advantage of this arrangement without being subject to the laws we have collectively decided to impose on ourselves. That is freeloading. If, instead, you had arranged a barter with the fueling station for your fuel using acceptable materials found and developed solely on your property (using no equipment transported on _publicly funded roads_ nor transported by _publicly educated workers_), I would have no problem with that. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > I have the benefit of the roads fair exchange right? I am a willing participant for the common good. right? You don’t get to pick and choose. You want to be free to ignore the laws you want while benefiting from their protection, i.e. freeloading. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > Do you really think your federal taxes go to goods and services. Well, yes, that’s rather the point. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > And yes I did go to public schools but they were a state run agency then the federal government did not legislate curruculum. LOl I am in an unincorporated district our fire protection is a voluntary organization. Substitute “state of \_\_\_\_” for “federal government”, then. Of course, the federal government **does** set some standards for the level of state education. That’s how our federal system of government works. And even if you have a voluntary fire service, you are still covered under whatever local law enforcement and emergency medical services are available in the area. Whether or not you’ve called for them, you benefit from the existence of such services but wish to essentially freeload from them. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/197 "2013-06-25T14:40:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, sir, [“joinder”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joinder) means bringing two or more **issues** together to be heard in one hearing or trial. If there is no case at bar, the term means nothing. Issue #1 the flesh and blood . the soul and the court has no jurisdiction Issue #2 the corporate citizen the court has expressed jurisdiction ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/198 "2013-06-25T14:44:03Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Issue #1 the flesh and blood . the soul and the court has no jurisdiction > Issue #2 the corporate citizen the court has expressed jurisdiction Pray, elucidate. How are the physical person and the legal entity person “issues?” ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/199 "2013-06-25T14:44:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. The gas tax doesn’t raise enough to pay for the roads by itself. > 2. What is the difference between “statute” and "law’? Who says the gasoline tax doesn’t raise enough capitol? um could it be the agencies that want more debt ? I will ask you to help me out of that one as when new statutes are written why do they ask for enforcement under “colour of law” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/200 "2013-06-25T14:47:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, sir, [“joinder”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joinder) means bringing two or more **issues** together to be heard in one hearing or trial. If there is no case at bar, the term means nothing. “Joinder? I hardly knew 'er!” No, I’ve got nothing of substance to add. Why do you ask? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=11)