# toward being a free man on the land **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826 "2013-06-24T21:31:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/261 "2013-06-25T18:24:42Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Who says the gasoline tax doesn’t raise enough capitol? > um could it be the agencies that want more debt ? > . . . We could go with the[ASCE](http://blogs.asce.org/govrel/2010/07/09/the-least-painful-and-most-beneficial-tax-ever/)(Civil Engineers). But you’re going to say that CEs want money, too. Wiki lists[a few others](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States). But really, the only people willing to sit down and figure out the costs of road maintenance are (surprise!) people interested in maintaining the roads. Or in government finances. Frankly, most folks who aren’t interested in one of the two are content to pull statements out of their asses. And what’s with the scattershot complaints about gas taxes . . . no, income taxes . . . no, spending . . . no, income? The basics are, no you can’t declare that laws, taxes, whatever, don’t apply to you. No matter how bad thinking about them make you feel. We got onto the taxes because of the freeloader comments, didn’t we? You sound like you’re not actually trying to get out of any taxes or other payments, though, so it’s kind of academic. For you. But you’re espousing an arguement that’s being used by all kinds of dodgers and criminals, and they definitely are freeloaders, and more. They do things like taking out a charge card, running up it up to the limit, making no payments and then saying that because magic-word-magicword-magicword they don’t owe anything. Complete freeloaders. Also smug, ignorant assholes. Supporting them will win you no friends. Except for maybe the guys in the armed compounds trying to grow their own food, the free-soverign-special folks are saying that they’re upset so they’re going to take their ball and pretend to go home while pickpocketing your lunch money, calling you names, and trying to make any job you’re trying to do harder. Not very friendly. Not very godly. Not very American. (Applies to the ones in America.) I like nitpicking as much as the next person. But I prefer a bit of accuracy, including sticking to one topic instead of flailing around about everything in the word that I maybe don’t like. You know what? I like indoor plumbing. And I couldn’t knit a sewage treatment plant to save my life. I could probably design one, given enough time, but I sure couldn’t construct it. Not a city-sized one, anyway. So I’m not going to waste time quibbling about whether sewage treatment plants are federal, state, county, or city, because it doesn’t matter. (Although most plants were originally built with federal funds.) I can go close the door and take a dump in my mortgaged and taxed home and I can flush after and I like it that way. I will gladly pay my water bill and my sewer hookup charge with my taxed income, and I will proudly declare myself to be A CITIZEN. I will obey . . . well, probably as many laws as you obey. The difference is that when I complain about some government related thing I will not go off into the never-nevers, lumping all kinds of things into a pile of grievance that I then climb on top of to declare myself king of the world. Cause it’s not going to do anyone any good and not going to be any fun either. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/262 "2013-06-25T18:30:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Despite any claims to the contrary, this person does not represent the American people as a whole, either officially or unofficially, and most of us are as appalled as you at this level of delusionary ignorance. Don’t worry, the UK and Canada have em too. For some people, it’s just an incredible mindfuck that they’re born into a society that they had no choice in being born into, subject to laws and customs that they had no say in formulating. Normal people appreciate being born into a stable society with no roving bands of marauders out to rape or kill or enslave you. They must constantly feel the same way I felt in high school when I was working my crappy grocery store job, when I wished I could be in Azeroth rather than the parking lot collecting shopping carts. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/263 "2013-06-25T18:31:04Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > If you are less than 55 years old all you have known has been a totalitarian regime in lieu of a free republic. If you think the US today qualifies as a totalitarian regime, you have been leading a sheltered life, and owe an apology to all those suffering under true tyranny around the world. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/264 "2013-06-25T18:36:03Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > you don’t know what my talents are, Mr. Barbarian. I have an guess as to what some of them aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/265 "2013-06-25T18:37:15Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Let’s say someone walks up to your house – and let’s say he makes off with some of your stuff if you’re not around, or maybe he breaks some of your bones if you’re there and he feels like it. What do you do? (And, at that: what do you do if the authorities apprehend that guy, only to have him politely inform them that he is Man The Creator, or some such?) While he may not grasp the finer points of the legal system, roads or taxes, our dear marcmcroy is absolutely certain of one thing and that’s that the nebulous concept he’s labeled natural rights/law necessarily includes all things that inconvenience, injure or harm him. He may even agree that should _he_ steal something, he should be subject to some sort of penalty, but that’s doubtful. However, as soon as the injured party is somewhat abstracted such as in the matter of paying taxes or registering a vehicle, the seeming lack of a concrete victim to point to prevents him from conceptualizing the need for the accompanying law. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/266 "2013-06-25T18:42:06Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If you think the US today qualifies as a totalitarian regime, you have been leading a sheltered life, and owe an apology to all those suffering under true tyranny around the world. First he ought to apologize to anyone who slogged through his stupid posts. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/267 "2013-06-25T18:57:16Z")
Oh, have I enjoyed this thread. Sovereign citizens, while occasionally dangerous, are just kinda adorably nutty most of the time. Reading their theories/arguments is, perhaps especially for a lawyer, like taking some strange, potent drug. There is kinda/sorta a kernel of truth down at the bottom of all of this, about not having consented to the social contract (though, as everyone has pointed out, the tacit consent of accepting benefits is sufficient to overcome that). Jefferson suggested that we should have a new constitution every twenty years or so, to allow each generation to form its own social contract. But it’s a long (and usually hilarious) way to go from that to admiralty and gold fringes and ‘accepted for value’ and Law of the Family Monkey and… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/268 "2013-06-25T18:59:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > First he ought to apologize to anyone who slogged through his stupid posts. No need to apologize to me. I’ve been only skimming. But it does seem remarkable how fast this thread has grown. I think it’s nostalgia and that many of us, like myself and Bob Dylan [Want Everybody to be Free](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbGefwd20h8). ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/269 "2013-06-25T19:18:57Z")
So getting back to my questions: Do you firmly believe that you have paid and are paying the full amount of the benefits you receive from the Federal/State/Local governments you receive? Second question: If you are physically present in the United States/your Sovereign State (for the sake of argument anywhere off your property), why do you feel you do not need to obey the laws. Would you allow a guest into your home to do whatever they want because they did not sign a physical contract to not trash and steal you possessions or violate any other rules you come up with? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/270 "2013-06-25T19:26:23Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So getting back to my questions: > Do you firmly believe that you have paid and are paying the full amount of the benefits you receive from the Federal/State/Local governments you receive? > > Second question: > If you are physically present in the United States/your Sovereign State (for the sake of argument anywhere off your property), why do you feel you do not need to obey the laws. Would you allow a guest into your home to do whatever they want because they did not sign a physical contract to not trash and steal you possessions or violate any other rules you come up with? I think the OP packed his bags and went elsewhere to spread his [del]excrement[/del]wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/271 "2013-06-25T19:30:05Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > I have seen parts of the world both better off financially, quality of life and yes more freedoms than this country. Well, you won’t have seen all of those in the **same** country. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > If you are less than 55 years old all you have known has been a totalitarian regime in lieu of a free republic. 1. That would make the cutoff year 1958, but I see nothing constitutionally watershed-significant about that year, nor any year up to five years later or earlier. What event were you thinking of? 2. Hey, the U.S. still ranks pretty high – not the highest, but pretty high – on both the [Democracy Index](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_index) and the [Index of Economic Freedom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom). The [Gini coefficient](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient) of income-distribution equality, however, tells a more depressing story. We rank there with fucking **Mexico** and **China.** So let’s focus on where the real problem lies. We got plenty freedom, we need more equality. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > The water temp is rising in the boiling pot of frogs and you don’t see it. They’ve done that experiment in real life. At some point the frog always hops out of the pot. [The Master Speaks.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3041/if-you-turn-up-the-heat-on-a-frog-in-water-so-slowly-it-doesn-t-notice-will-it-eventually-boil-alive) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/272 "2013-06-25T19:35:50Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > I am really feeling drawn toward the free man on the land movement, the more i read and know about my sovereign rights the more natural it feels. How can I be accountable to state statutes that i don’t want to be party to. The new health care and abortion options are a good example I don’t want to be contracted with that kind of legislation and I want out. What say you? Here’s the problem. As others have pointed out, when we agree to have a government of any form, we agree to follow the common rules and (hopefully) there is a system in place to change rules we don’t like. At our Federal level the best we can do is change our representative (1 Rep, 2 Senators) to try to change what we don’t like. It is very ineffectual and so I agree that the larger and unweildy the Federal government becomes, the harder it is for the citizenry to have their desires made into law (some do view this as a good thing). The problem with Freemen of the Land or Sovereign Citizen is they pick and choose what rules they want enforced and which they choose not to follow. They love that I don’t get poisoned everytime they eat food or take medicine because of the Pure Food and Drug Act but claim they didn’t sign any contract to not drive 70mph in a school zone. If you want out then what you need to do is give up your US citizenship and move to Bir Tawil or Antarctica or an undiscovered island the no country lays claim to. Of course there are some areas of the country that are de facto anarchy so I’m sure they would count as well. What you cannot do is cherry pick what part of the social (and I would argue given citizenship common law legal) contract you want in terms of benefits/responsibilities. Maybe if you want this thread to go in a constructive direction, you should say what sovereign rights you are claiming and justify why you as an individual are allowed to choose what laws to follow and (more importantly) why others can’t use the same logic to rob or injure you. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/273 "2013-06-25T19:41:10Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > you don’t know what my talents are, Mr. Barbarian. To question matters and have curiosity is one of the signs of intelligence. I have seen parts of the world both better off financially, quality of life and yes more freedoms than this country.I have been party to orders from the powers that be, that has greatly affected many lives I have seen oppression to the likes the average person would not want to see. I have been the jackboot on the throat as well as the liberator. I am an American indigenous man. I am of an age that saw your liberties erode right in front of your eyes through statute after statute. Have you seen attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion and watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate? Because that would be cool. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/274 "2013-06-25T20:15:27Z")
Well, I \*\*did \*\*warn him about the racist elements in that movement. As many noticed, relying on cites from racists and crackpots is not good for the soul. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/275 "2013-06-25T20:29:22Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Lemurs (i/ˈliːmər/ lee-mər) are a clade of strepsirrhine primates endemic to the island of Madagascar. The word “lemur” derives from the word lemures (ghosts or spirits) from Roman mythology and was first used to describe a slender loris due to its nocturnal habits and slow pace > Glad I aint on of them > > oops [Lemur - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemur) > wow lil :rolleyes: huh mate You have been told to refrain from launching personal insults at other posters. This is a Warning that such continued behavior will result in the loss of privileges to post to this board. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/276 "2013-06-25T20:54:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The real irony is that the one and only effect of the “freeman on the land” movement is to decrease the freedom of their members. Consider me, for instance: I can come and go wherever and whenever I please. If I want to go down the street to my mom’s house or across the ocean to the land of my ancestors, I can do it. I can pursue any job I want, and when I land one, I can use the money I get from it to buy a wide variety of things. The only cost I pay for this is that I have to give a very small percentage of what I earn to the government, and I have to be nice to other people (which I would have done anyway). All told, I’m pretty free. If other people were to say they wanted a life like mine, I’d understand entirely. > > But the Freeman on the Land doesn’t want to pay that very small price, declaring instead that any encroachment on his freedom whatsoever is intolerable. And what is the outcome of this? Instead of a small encroachment on his freedom, he gets a near-total loss of it. He’s free to move anywhere in a 10’ by 10’ cell, and to converse with anyone within the range of his shouting. He eats what the jailers serve him, sleeps where and when the jailers tell him, and has almost no opportunity for self-betterment. Rather than allowing the law to protect his freedom, he has instead forced the law to remove his freedom. I would nitpick one tiny thing: I disagree that the total taxes you or I pay is “very small”. Carry on. With moar cowbell. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/277 "2013-06-25T20:57:07Z")
marcmcroy, use the word “law” in place of “statute” in one of your posts. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/278 "2013-06-25T22:43:18Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Wow…6 pages for THIS??? :eek: The OP has a post count of 62 . . . including 59 in this thread. [Here’s the other thread,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=694445) if you were curious. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/279 "2013-06-25T23:37:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You have been told to refrain from launching personal insults at other posters. > > This is a Warning that such continued behavior will result in the loss of privileges to post to this board. > > [/Moderating] Was that actually an insult? 'Cause all I see is a colossal non-sequitur. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/280 "2013-06-25T23:43:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Was that actually an insult? 'Cause all I see is a colossal non-sequitur. He was implying that **Lemur866** is slow, _aka_ stupid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=15)