# toward being a free man on the land **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826 "2013-06-24T21:31:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/521 "2013-06-28T22:09:15Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Wow. just has an epiphany. > The average poster here is not recognizing, my field of references, the Divine. > The citizens I see as free souls and divine creatures The average person doesn’t see that umbilical cord to the creator and The Law resonates at every part of being. **Most** Americans believe in God (not me, but most). Very few believe in your FOTL doctrine. That ought to tell you that it’s not them, it’s you. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > I don’t see the corporate identity created by birth certificates and being summoned to appear in court in person. The law does not see it either. Your birth certificate does not create a corporate identity separate from your personal identity, and it is the latter that is summoned to appear in court. You can be summoned even if you never had a BC, it makes no legal difference. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > You say my rights are granted by a court of law..Created by government as our overlord to keep us from doing things that are lawful but not legal.. No, your rights are granted by the law, which is a different matter from a court of law, and your rights do not pre-exist or predate the law. And there is nothing “lawful but not legal.” > [@marcmcroy](#): > > Driving a car is lawful. > Doing it with out a approved license, is not legal. Driving a car without a license is unlawful. There is no distinction between unlawful and illegal. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/522 "2013-06-28T22:15:36Z")
and and peace and love ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/523 "2013-06-28T22:19:36Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > and and peace and love Where there is no government you’ll find little of either. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/524 "2013-06-28T22:41:01Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > … I don’t see the corporate identity created by birth certificates … The [DEL]Strawman[/DEL] Scarecrow has arrived, our journey to OZ begins in earnest, HUZZAH!!! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/525 "2013-06-28T22:50:14Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Will all the lemurs(or was that lemmings?) follow the leader off the ridge . . . Posting insults is bad. Posting insults when one has been told to stop is very bad and earns the poster demerits. Posting insults that use the same language as the insults for which one has already been Warned suggests that a poster may not be a good fit for this message board. This is a Warning that you need to stop this behavior. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/526 "2013-06-28T23:26:13Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > And what if these “social contracts” were made without full disclosure of benefits and waivers. That’s why you’re supposed to go to school and be educated, so you have come clue how things work. > [@](#): > > One of the ways Governments and other regulators have tricked you into thinking you must follow their rules, is to create for themselves an “artificial-person / corporation” who is not you, but whom the Government has fooled you into thinking is you (See Natural vs. Artificial and Trick #4). But, so as not to violate your fundamental rights, they also have provide recognition in law for another legal entity called a “natural-person” (simply meaning a human-being in the law) with which most of your fundamental rights are still intact. So when you interact with the law, you may be represented as an artificial or natural person – you choose. Have you informed the government that they need to give you that option? Because, from what I can see, everytime one of you FotLers or SC’s attempts to force a court to to treat you as what you call a “natural person” you wind up locked up for contempt of court or some such. I would say your strategy does not seem to be working… > [@](#): > > This concept of an “artificial-person”, a legally obligated entity, that appears to be you, but in fact is not you, is a little difficult to grasp at first, but if you follow through this site, you will understand. No thank you, I don’t care for [del]Kool Aid[/del] Flavor-Aid ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/527 "2013-06-28T23:30:37Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > we know for instance now the supreme court ruled you can’t just keep quiet. You have to declare you are using your right to silence under the fifth amendment. If you had _actually read_ the 5th Amendment you’d know that you have a right to _avoid self-incrimination_, not “silence”. Truly, the level of ignorance of your own subject matter is appalling. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/528 "2013-06-28T23:42:46Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > The fish yet again, who was the maker of the fish?who’s label is on that damn fish. that’s the rightful owner. In that case, unless YOUR name was on the fish it wasn’t your fish, either. > [@](#): > > in my belief system of natural law.And that owner allowed me stewardship as I “the man” . Your belief system, which is clearly not universal. And how convenient your god gave you “stewardship” - is that like some primitive tribe that believes it’s OK to steal cattle from others because their god gave them ownership of all cattle? > [@](#): > > A fishing License covers just that, recreational fishing ( dare I say a commercial activity) my line in the water did not confer a commercial activity. “Recreational” fishing actually legally distinct from “commercial” fishing. Which you’d know if you bothered to actually read any laws or regulations. Recreational fishing is that done for enjoyment. Commercial fishing is done for profit. The fees for fishing licenses go to protect and where necessary re-stock fish so that the public can continue to enjoy recreational fishing in the future, in other words, to preserve the common good. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/529 "2013-06-28T23:46:56Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Wow it’s one thing to set arguments against a common poster but you are ready to debate one of the most enlightened orators of history Thomas Jefferson. wow just the audacity of that, humbles me. Right, the great Jefferson who, although he did many worthy things, also banged his female slaves, owned other human beings - what was that about being created equal? - and like every other human being had flaws and made mistakes. Absolutely YES his words should be re-examined and questioned. Many of them will hold up to such scrutiny. But saying “oh, he’s so great, you shouldn’t question him!” is not freedom of any sort. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/530 "2013-06-28T23:53:28Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > I have only been in court twice and both times swore on the bible. NC courts. There’s your problem, you were in NC [/sarcasm] More seriously - is it THAT inconceivable to you that it might be done differently elsewhere than where you live? You talk about the world, but I don’t think you’ve ever traveled much in it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/531 "2013-06-28T23:57:50Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > The average poster here is not recognizing, my field of references, the Divine. Yes, we do not all share your religion. Some of us are atheists. Some of us are polytheists. I not sure what, exactly, you are but you might be the only one of that sect/cult here, which would make you highly unusual on this forum. > [@](#): > > I don’t see the corporate identity created by birth certificates and being summoned to appear in court in person. To me that sounds like occult. :dubious: There are some of us here quite comfortable with exploring the occult… ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/532 "2013-06-29T00:12:49Z")
> [@Robb](#): > > You really should ponder what this “4. To define the meaning of all words appearing on government forms, regardless of how the government defines them” really means. A language works because a group of people agree to follow the rules of the language, which includes agreeing to common meanings of words. You’ve taught me that the people you follow believe that the true meanings of words are secrets known to very few people. But, the people you follow are telling you that they are inventing those secret meanings. This is a philosophy based on _Alice in Wonderland._ I recommend that the OP get a copy of [Black’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black%27s_Law_Dictionary) and see that there is no “secret” language, and it is quite well defined. Obscure sometimes, but it is defined.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/533 "2013-06-29T00:54:03Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > men elected Governments to protect and uphold your unalienable rights and your responsibilities to the Creator and your fellow man. After a while, Governments became corrupt and now we have to ask: How could Governments and other “regulatory bodies” possibly make you follow their rules and be subservient to them since your true allegiance is to your Creator? How can you serve two masters – your creator and your Government? The answer is that you cannot server two masters Possibly I’d try that on a judge who believes in God. What should I say to a judge who happens to be an atheist? I say _“You cannot serve two masters; is your allegiance to these laws, or to Our Father Who Art In Heaven?”_ And, since he doesn’t believe in the latter, he says _“Uh, the former, I guess?”_ That’s no problem if there’s crisply-written stuff on the books for me to cite – if I can mention a statute of limitations that ran out, or caselaw about the Miranda warning I didn’t get, or whatever. But what’s my next move if (a) all I have is praise for God, and (b) the guy who can sentence me to prison has no interest in God? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/534 "2013-06-29T01:23:45Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Wow it’s one thing to set arguments against a common poster but you are ready to debate one of the most enlightened orators of history Thomas Jefferson. wow just the audacity of that, humbles me. Aren’t you kind of doing the same thing, since you’re basically arguing against the very system the Founding Fathers set up? Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/535 "2013-06-29T02:41:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Aren’t you kind of doing the same thing, since you’re basically arguing against the very system the Founding Fathers set up? Just sayin’. Well, Jefferson wasn’t at the Constitutional Convention (he was in France at the time) and didn’t really approve of the result, saying the Articles of Confederation could’ve been fixed up satisfactorily with a few amendments. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/536 "2013-06-29T03:10:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, Jefferson wasn’t at the Constitutional Convention (he was in France at the time) and didn’t really approve of the result, saying the Articles of Confederation could’ve been fixed up satisfactorily with a few amendments. That disapproval didn’t stop him from holding offices in that same government for the next twenty years. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/537 "2013-06-29T03:45:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Posting insults is bad. > Posting insults when one has been told to stop is very bad and earns the poster demerits. > Posting insults that use the same language as the insults for which one has already been Warned suggests that a poster may not be a good fit for this message board. > > This is a Warning that you need to stop this behavior. > > [/Moderating] Don’t listen to him **Marcmcroy**! You never agreed to be bound by these statutes! Also I know for a fact that **tomndebb** has a gold fringe. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/538 "2013-06-29T04:18:18Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Jurisdiction is given on matter or persons, a capitol crime is definetly subject matter This is starting to become my #1 pet peeve. That’s actually a surprise given the absolutely asinine blather you’ve posted here, but such it is. A capit **o** l is a building. A capit **a** crime is one for which the accused may be subject to the death penalty. Look, we’ve already seen that you have little respect for the language. Just for kicks, try to fix this one thing, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/539 "2013-06-29T04:22:07Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Insults to lemurs aside (which I find neither coy nor amusing) He’s not actually talking about lemurs; he’s coyly trying to get around a mod instruction about insulting another poster. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/540 "2013-06-29T04:25:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That disapproval didn’t stop him from holding offices in that same government for the next twenty years. Well, y’know, if it’s the only game in town . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=28)